Forum To Ask Questions About: Judaism, The Torah & The Talmud and Its Relationship To Yeshua

Shalom Alechiem Everyone,

This chat is open to any questions that range from what is the Torah and what does it mean, up to thinking about conversion, or how to understand Paul from his Jewish perspective or what it means for Gentiles to be "graphed in" to the B'nei Israel (The Children of Israel). G-d willing, I hope I can provide answers for you and if not, I will certainly make sure I do my best to find the answer G-d Willing!

May G-d Bless You

“The entire commandment that I command you today, you shall observe to perform, so that you may live and increase, and come and possess the Land that H-Shem swore to your forefathers. You shall remember the entire road on which H-Shem, your G-d, led you these 40 years in the Wilderness so as to afflict you, test you and let you hunger…in order to make you know that not by bread alone does man live, rather by everything that emanates from the mouth of G-d does man live…You should know in your hearts that just as a father will chastise his son, so H-Shem, your G-d chastises you” (D’varim/Deuteronomy 8:1-5)

“Jesus was led up by the Spirit (Shechina) into the wildness to be tempted by the devil. After fasting 40 days and 40 nights, he was hungry. The temper (Satan) came to and said to him, “If you are the Son of G-d, command these stones to become loaves of bread. But he answered, “It is written, ‘” Man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that comes from the mouth of G-d”. (Mattityahu/Matthew 4:1-4)

Conversion to what? Judaism?

I suspect any thing that mud forms a part of.

I'm thinking this is likely a very unique discussion starter.

Why do Jews still not accept Jesus was their Messiah?
And may God bless you as well.

Hello YDo

I will do my best to relate the truth as I can.

a) Accepting that the NT is written as a Jewish Text. I start with this point alone because once one realizes that what we learn in church is very "simple" in relativity to the deeper Jewish context, idioms, Rabbinical format, etc, one can begin to see the deeper meaning of the text that can only be brought out in a Jewish way. Proof on this is that both Yeshua and Paul relate passages that all believers should listen to those who sit in the seat of Moshe (which means Torah Scholars/Pharisees/Rabbi's) because Spiritual Gifts and understanding have been given to them, while Gentiles have been given physical gifts (Matt 23:1-13, Acts 15:20-21, Romans 11)

b) I will answer your question in one of many fashions that may help you understand In the 1st century, "Messianic Jews and Messianic Believers (Non-Jews) were VERY successful in bringing Jews to faith. We learn much of this through the book of Acts or in the Gospels. However, since the destruction of the Temple in 70AD and Roman brutality to Jews and Messianics, many of the communities were separated, lost and the understanding of Yeshua was left to everyone's own self (the "other gospel" variations you could call it); until the birth of "Christianity" in 330AD.

For over 1,700 years Christians have persecuted and enslaved Jews both physically and manipulatively throughout history. Most recently, is the Holocaust where 6 million Jews died in the most "Christian" continent in the world. I always tell people, just imagine if USA held 100 Muslims hostage today, what would happen? Aside from the historical record, "Orthodox/Observant Jews" for 1,700 have rejected Jesus on another account, that is on the "doctrines taught".

Now the reason I bring this 2 major points up (time of Yeshua and the last 1,700 years), is because we must ask ourselves, what was different or why was the time of Jesus of the first 100-300 years so successful and the last 1,700 years not? What is different and what is wrong? Note: The Time of the 2nd Temple, history, Christianity AND JUDAISM agree, Israel was in the lowest spiritual state, hence the destruction of the 2nd Temple.

In short, every Christian must ask themselves, "what are we doing wrong or different then Yeshua, the disciples and the short generations that followed?" The answer starts with point A) and re-evaluating what the text of both the Torah and the NT have to tell us. For the Torah is the foundation of the entire world, and once the Torah is understood, one can understand the words of Yeshua and Paul who not only claimed to be a Pharisee, not only was he the Top of his Class (under Rabban Gamliel), but he even studied the Torah and the Oral Teachings for ANOTHER 3 years AFTER his encounter with Yeshua.

Everything I mentioned is what got me questioning what I was doing wrong as a Christian.

I hope this helps you and is understandable. Note, I am not judging any soul, for Christians, Jews and HUMANS can all do good or bad with the truth, so just knowing the truth alone, doesn't equate to being good but nor does being wrong theologically equate to being a bad person or believer

Shalom!

Excellent. Thank you.
One historic point I would contribute my two coppers to is that of the Holocaust persecutions. Jews were but one people targeted. Roma were another. Homosexuals another, and so forth.

Thank you again.
Well said.

Ah no problem. I'm glad I could answer that for you YDo! Yes you are right thanks for stating that. If you have any more questions, feel free to ask.

Shabbat Shalom!

I have a question.

How do we decide which commandments apply and which dont?

1Cor 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.
Gal_6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
Gal 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.

^In light of these scriptures, we see circumcision no longer applies, and is fulfilled spiritually:

Col_2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

This was a big issue in Paul's writings, he mentioned this often, almost the entire book of Galatians is about that.


So my question(s) would be:

1. How to decide which commandments to keep, since we can see circumcision is no longer applicable to gentile converts, and animal sacrifices is no longer applicable since Jesus was the once and for all sacrifice for sins. I know some people believe they will come back during the messianic era when Jesus is no longer a priest, but a king, well fine but im talking about this gospel time we are in now.

2. Do you believe that gentiles who convert to your group are Israelites after conversion? Chabad usually discourages conversion, some even turn away converts to test their sincerity, and even then you are at best a second class Jew. They much prefer people stay noahides.

3. If one is not circumcised, but lets say he keeps the dietary laws, kosher, can he be considered a "Torah observant person" in the new covenant?

Why did you not answer the question about why the jews did not recieve their messiah?

As for why 7 AD and the 1700 years. A good start would be your own torah, in the book of leviticus, and the 26th chapter..

I'll take a crack at this one EG.

The Scriptures say that the Word of God became Flesh in the person of Jesus. This was the Messiah. He said Abraham was glad to see Him, and that before Abraham was, He was. This means it was the Messiah who spoke to Abraham, who spoke to Cain and Noah. Who gave Abraham Torah, who "ADDED" a Priesthood 430 years after Abraham, which He gave to Moses"till the seed should come". The Jewish leaders rejected the Word's of their Messiah as the Word of God and created their own "oral law" or Talmud" as it is called.

God warned them of the consequences of such behavior, but they didn't "Believe" Him.

Lev. 26:
14 But if ye will not hearken unto me, and will not do all these commandments;
15 And if ye shall despise my statutes, or if your soul abhor my judgments, so that ye will not do all my commandments, but that ye break my covenant:
16 I also will do this unto you; I will even appoint over you terror, consumption, and the burning ague, that shall consume the eyes, and cause sorrow of heart: and ye shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it.
17 And I will set my face against you, and ye shall be slain before your enemies: they that hate you shall reign over you; and ye shall flee when none pursueth you.

But He also made another promise.

38 And ye shall perish among the heathen, and the land of your enemies shall eat you up.
39 And they that are left of you shall pine away in their iniquity in your enemies' lands; and also in the iniquities of their fathers shall they pine away with them.
40 If they shall confess their iniquity, and the iniquity of their fathers, with their trespass which they trespassed against me, and that also they have walked contrary unto me;
41 And that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity:
42 Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land.
43 The land also shall be left of them, and shall enjoy her sabbaths, while she lieth desolate without them: and they shall accept of the punishment of their iniquity: because, even because they despised my judgments, and because their soul abhorred my statutes.
44 And yet for all that, when they be in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break my covenant with them: for I am the LORD their God.
45 But I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the heathen, that I might be their God: I am the LORD.

They rejected their Messiah when they rejected the God of Abraham. As Jesus said:

John 14:
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

This same Christ said the same thing as the Word of God.

Duet. 30:
19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I (The Word of God which became Flesh) have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

They rejected the Son of God which created all things, which became Flesh in the person of Jesus. Had they "believed" the Law and Prophets, they would have known Jesus. As He said.

Luke 16:
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Zechariahs in Luke 1 would be an example of a Jew who "confessed his iniquity to God and humbled his heart towards God. As a result, God showed Him mercy as He promised, and Zechariahs knew the Christ when He came, while the Pharisees did not.

Great thread. Good discussion.

Beware of rabbinical teachings which replace the Word of God. This is what Jesuis dealt with when speaking to the hypocrites of His time.

We are spiritually the sons of Abraham, and we should always give heed to our Hebrew past, but there is no such thing as Judaism from Yeshua,, Jesus, just the faith of Abraham.

So, it was CHRISTIANS who slaughtered the Jews?

Pray tell...........WHO WAS IT that fought against the 3rd Reich, and Hitlers murderers TO FREE THE JEWS? Muslems? Hindus? Pagans?

Pardon my old Soldier language, but your OP is a bunch of crap!

Shalom Alechiem! I won't get into anything too deep, but I'll use one simple point that will come straight from Yeshua and the NT itself. After all, we are told to "Be Christ-Like" and everything Yeshua did was 100% sin-free and legalistic free right? I agree 100%! So explain this to me. Thank you!

You have a menorah I see as a photo and for example, you are well aware of Yeshua celebrating Chanukah ("the festival of lights") in John 10:22. Based just on history alone, we are all aware that Chanukah certainly did not have during any period of time of the Tanakh or OT, let alone the Torah. So explain to me, "IF" Yeshua was "Anti-Oral Torah", why would Yeshua celebrate a 100% Rabbinical based holiday or tradition, that "G-d Himself" never wrote down to Israel or even to the Believers? Ex: "Thou shalt celebrate the miracle of the menorah on the 25th of Kislev (The 3rd month)?

Have a great week!

I never said Christians didn't help, but can you escape the fact that Christians have a very bad history against the Jews until the last 70 years? I am sorry you are offended, but that doesn't mean you cannot accept the truth and learn from it and do better That is the whole point of "Teshuvah" or repentance. We all make mistakes, even myself, but we can only change if we can admit our failures and look at went wrong in history.

Again, this is not to say that Christian's don't do good, of course they do and I support the ones that do We should help one another as much as we can! But in a Jewish perspective, after 2000+ years of suffering at the hands of Christians, can you at least "see" why Jews have a hard time accepting Yeshua on just that "one" fact alone? That was the whole point.

I hope you can see the complexity of what I am saying. Thanks for your comment!

Hi there. Shalom Thanks for your input.

I believe if you have an open mind, you can see many answers within the text, just as "YDo" clearly did. But in case you didn't, in short, I was trying to give you the perspective of the Jew and how they see Christianity just at a "historical" level.

Simply, would you easily accept a Messiah or a religion that for 2000+ years and as recent as 70, persecuted and killed your family and possibly your grandparents? (Or at in the name of someone you are told to believe?). Thus, Jews don't have an issue with Yeshua but many of their "proclaimed" followers. If you can accept this from the perspective of the Jew, maybe you can empathize with this and learn how to "adopt" just as Paul did, or at least question your own theologies and try and see "IF" there are some errors in "HOW" things are done.

Finally, you have a bible that holds "the Torah" as well. Our Messiah, IS the Torah. So to make a possibly (maybe I am assuming) derogatory remark by stating "your own Torah", then that isn't a good thing and I hope you repent from that so you can be forgiven . For G-d is perfect and His Torah is perfect and if we don't understand how it all fits together, it isn't the Torah's fault, but the readers.

I hope I can help with anything else. We all need peace, but through truth and wisdom as the entire book of Proverbs teaches us

Have a great week!

Forum To Ask Questions About: Judaism, The Torah & The Talmud and Its Relationship To Yeshua

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Had all of Israel receive Christ as their Messiah and Savior, Judaism would not exist today. It is a false religion.

The New Testament historical record shows that the majority of Jews REJECTED Christ, which in itself is almost unbelievable. *He came unto His own and His own RECEIVED HIM NOT".

Jews can point the finger at Gentiles all they want (and there is no doubt that there has been much persecution and hatred of the Jews) but they must still deal with the FACT that they rejected Jesus of Nazareth, in spite of all the evidence that was before them, starting with the fact that He was born in Bethlehem of Judah as prophesied by Micah.

After that they made the Talmud superior to the Torah, and elevated the traditions of men above the Word of God. Christ already condemned this, and pronounced woes on the scribes, Pharisees, and lawyers.

Today Orthodox Jews are waiting for their *true Messiah* but they will generally be deceived, since the Antichrist will present himself as the *true Messiah* and deceive the whole world. Many Jews in Israel are anticipating the building of the third temple, and that too will be a fulfillment of Bible prophecy. The Abomination of Desolation spoken of by Daniel and reiterated by Christ will indeed stand in *the holy place*.

Hello Nehemiah. Wow, this comment just speaks love to the Jewish people... Why? What do you benefit from such a comment? A sense of superiority? A sense of "being better"? Were you not at one point without Yeshua? I know I was. I was doing many sinful acts, but does G-d ever give up on the most lost of children? Did not the parable of the "lost sheep" ever get told to you? Have you ever read Romans 11 that EVEN though Jews rejected Yeshua, that Gentiles are not to BOAST over them? If Yeshua was accepted right then and there, Christianity or the "the fulfillment of the Gentiles" would have never happened! Gentiles WOULD NEVER EVEN KNOW OF A 1 TRUE G-D. Can you not see that this is a replay of Joseph being sold to Egypt and in fact, the brothers were 100% wrong and yet still G-d BLESSED THEM??? You think if you were are Mount Sinai, you wouldn't have joined in on building the Golden Calf? AARON MADE THE CALF!!! You think you sit higher than AARON? By your comment alone, you yourself should look up the definition of grace for the sake of your soul.

Finally, you are right, at this moment and for 2,000 years Jew (majority) have completely rejected Yeshua but Yeshua said something...."Many will say L-rd, L-rd, did we not cast out demons in your name? Did we not do great works in your name? And Yeshua will say, 'DEPART FROM ME YOU CURSED, I NEVER KNEW YOU"..... Tell me, Nehemiah, if Jews and Muslims and Seculars aren't calling out to Yeshua....then who are the "MANY" Yeshua himself state this too?

Word of the day Nehemiah... "Humility".

May G-d forgive you and may you repent from such a comment for the greater good of all people.

G-d Bless You.

My avatar represents the Seven Spirits of the Seven assemblies of God in Yeshua, Jesus.

If you think of it as something else, this is your choice and perception. All blessings in Jesus Christ.

MD28,
My post was not meant to express animosity towards Jews or imply that saved Gentiles are *better* or *superior*. As you have indicated, and with which every Christian would agree, Scriptures says that Gentiles are not be be high-minded because they are saved by grace and have been grafted into *the good olive tree* of believing Israel.

Indeed, I have often reminded Christians that the Church was initially Jewish, the first church being that of Jerusalem, and the record shows that thousands of Jews were saved at Pentecost and shortly thereafter, including many priests. At the same time the Jewish religious leaders persecuted and killed Christians, and Saul of Tarsus was one of those persecutors who became the apostle Paul

But Christians -- both Jews and Gentiles -- cannot avoid the fact that unbelieving Israel was held directly responsible for the crucifixion of Christ, and that the mob (incited by their religious leaders) cried out repeatedly "Crucify Him", "Crucify Him", and then "His blood be on us, and on our children". And there is no escaping the fact that as a result God brought severe judgment upon Israel in Judea, and the Romans destroyed Jerusalem and the temple, following which the Jews were dispersed.

At the same time, I have consistently reminded Christians that Replacement Theology is false, and that after the Second Coming of Christ there will be a redeemed and restored Israel extending from the Nile to the Euphrates, after all the Jews are gathered to Israel by God, and one third of them become the believing remnant of Israel.

When people know what a "true Jew" is they will not continue to separate and categorize the gathered Flocks of the Good Shepherd.