God and the Governing Authorities-Another Angle

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newton3003

Senior Member
Feb 4, 2017
437
42
28
#1
Romans 13:1 says, “Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.” This would seem to suggest that every governing authority is an extension of God, therefore we should obey it no matter how outrageous it, or its decrees, are. This may well be fortified by Romans 8:28 which says that with God, all things work together for good, for those who are called according to His purpose.

But one may be inclined to believe that a government that presides with deception and lies and that harms the people is not a governing authority from God. Yet upon consideration, the very nature of Romans 13:1 may imply that EVERY governing authority comes from God, even those that harm the people.

To wit, the Russian dictator Stalin was responsible for the murder of 25 million people around the time of World War Two. Some may be inclined to question of how HIS authority could have come from God to do so? One may ask ‘What good purpose does it serve God to murder 25 million people? Were they all sinners, like in the city of Sodom?’ There is no evidence to indicate that. Also, we know that God was willing to spare that city if there were even 10 righteous people living there. So, we may be inclined to believe that as Daniel 2:21 says that God removes kings and sets up kings, he does so when the kings He removes are not acting on His behalf, especially when they harm the people.

But a reading of Isaiah 3:1-5 puts an interesting angle on this. It says, “For behold, the Lord GOD of hosts is taking away from Jerusalem and from Judah support and supply, all support of bread, and all support of water; the mighty man and the soldier, the judge and the prophet, the diviner and the elder, the captain of fifty and the man of rank, the counselor and the skillful magician and the expert in charms. And I will make boys their princes, and infants shall rule over them. And the people will oppress one another, everyone his fellow and everyone his neighbor; the youth will be insolent to the elder, and the despised to the honorable.”

What to make of that? God is punishing the people of Jerusalem and Judah. If God does that, wouldn’t a governing authority, who according to the Bible acts on God’s behalf, do the same? A further reading of Romans chapter 13 reveals the following in verses 2-4: “Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for she is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, tan avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer.”

Does this mean we have no choice but to allow whoever the governing authorities are, to do what they want, even if means depriving millions of people who at least at first glance have done nothing wrong? That’s what seems to have happened in, say, Hitler’s Germany. But then, other governments put the government of Germany on trial for their atrocities committed against innocent people and have punished those who were involved.

So even if as implied by Romans 13:1-4 and as tempered by Isaiah 3:1-5, with a dash of Daniel 2:21, one may still have the urge to ask, ‘When is a governing authority acting on behalf of God, and when is it not?’ For one cannot conceive of God harming innocent people. Then again, Proverbs 3:5 says to trust in God with all your heart and do not lean on your own understanding. And whoever was harmed can expect to go to Heaven if they have been judged to have lived a righteous life on earth.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
25,071
13,601
113
#2
God puts governors in place but He doesn’t guarantee that they are either righteous or wise (yes, the two should overlap). Pray for them and, as your conscience allows, cooperate with them. At the same time, where you can’t cooperate, consider the best way to resist. In some cases that means silence (self-preservation); in some, vocal disagreement; in some, active resistance; and in some, self-sacrifice.

Remember that submission does not mean absolute surrender except before the Lord Himself.
 
Mar 23, 2016
7,021
1,673
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#3
God puts governors in place but He doesn’t guarantee that they are either righteous or wise (yes, the two should overlap).
I do not agree that God "puts" governments in place.

I believe God "allows" governments to be in place.

Think of when Israel wanted a king:

1 Samuel 8

4 Then all the elders of Israel gathered themselves together, and came to Samuel unto Ramah,

5 And said unto him, Behold, thou art old, and thy sons walk not in thy ways: now make us a king to judge us like all the nations.

6 But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us. And Samuel prayed unto the LORD.

7 And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.

8 According to all the works which they have done since the day that I brought them up out of Egypt even unto this day, wherewith they have forsaken me, and served other gods, so do they also unto thee.

9 Now therefore hearken unto their voice: howbeit yet protest solemnly unto them, and shew them the manner of the king that shall reign over them.

...


18 And ye shall cry out in that day because of your king which ye shall have chosen you; and the LORD will not hear you in that day.


We turn our backs on God and want to run things the way we want. Then when we're not satisfied with what we've done, we cry out to God. We've made a mess of things here ...



 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
23,460
7,185
113
#4
Haha what if...the next election, nobody voted becuase the people said we actually dont need a mere man or woman mayor/president/prime minister/leader/ruler over us, who will proabbaly stuff things up. because they are human. GOd is soveriegn we will just listen to Him.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
25,071
13,601
113
#5
I do not agree that God "puts" governments in place.

I believe God "allows" governments to be in place.
Romans 13:1 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.

That's the sense I was using.
 
Mar 23, 2016
7,021
1,673
113
#6
Romans 13:1 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.

That's the sense I was using.
Yeah, I understand.

My personal opinion is that Romans 13 relates to the Church (the true church ... the one body of which the Lord Jesus Christ is the Head) as opposed to any worldly government or denominational religious establishment (jmho).



 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
25,071
13,601
113
#7
Yeah, I understand.

My personal opinion is that Romans 13 relates to the Church (the true church ... the one body of which the Lord Jesus Christ is the Head) as opposed to any worldly government or denominational religious establishment (jmho).
I disagree because of verse 4:
For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.

Church leaders have no authority to exercise wrath with swords (use of force).
 
Feb 28, 2016
11,311
2,972
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#8
those in charge of 'the Church', are NOT appointed to pick-up the sword,
and rule through 'violence'...
 
P

pottersclay

Guest
#9
God uses cause and effect on many levels. Israel wanted a king...and so it was so....by God's hand. He gave them a king they deserved.
We constantly look for good leadership rather than the Almighty. But who seeks God?.. according to scripture no one.
All the Kings of Israel failed... All the Kings of the world will fail...the good news is there is one on his way who will not fail.
One who all government rest on his shoulder.
You cannot control lawless people. You cannot ignore lawless people. Sin knows no bounds it crouches at the door and waits.
It goes about the earth seeking who it May devoured.
The heart is wicked who can know it? By the grace of God we will escape by the skin of our teeth.
 
Mar 23, 2016
7,021
1,673
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#10
I disagree because of verse 4:
For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.

Church leaders have no authority to exercise wrath with swords (use of force).
Romans 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

just throwing this out for consideration:

Ephesians 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:


The word "sword" in both Rom 13:4 and Eph 6:17 is the Greek word machairan.

The minister of God is to utilize the sword of the Spirit (the Word of God) against evil. The Lord Jesus Christ utilized the Word of God very effectively to shut down the devil in Matt 4:1-10.



 

newton3003

Senior Member
Feb 4, 2017
437
42
28
#11
Romans 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
The "minister" referred to in that passage is the ruler. The government acts on behalf of God. When it does so, it is obligated to abide by the same commandments as everyone else. The only difference is that a government under God is expected to enforce God's will, so in accordance with Romans 13:4 it has the sword to do so. The rest of us have swords and shields referred to in the Bible, to protect ourselves, our households, our friends and our neighbors.