Not By Works

Jesus was responding to the Pharisee, he meant that they would not recognize the messiah with their understanding....it would not be physical until his second coming on earth

Your whole Post is a line of Questioning is VAGUE AND CONFUSING, and I have to was WHY, and WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO LEAD US TO? Plus, YOU NEVER ANSWERED MY QUESTIONS.

And Where did you EVER get the Idea that everything that ever happened in BIBLE TIMES, is recorded?


John 21:24-25 (HCSB)
24 This is the disciple who testifies to these things and who wrote them down. We know that his testimony is true.
25 And there are also many other things that Jesus did, which, if they were written one by one, I suppose not even the world itself could contain the books that would be written.

The problem is your interpretation of scripture.....ongoing sanctification has nothing to so with the act of being born again (saved) from above by incorruptible seed and receiving the free IRREVOCABLE GIFT OF ETERNAL LIFE ONCE FOR ALL......like I said...you conflate too many truths into the salvation equation which results in a false gospel that requires man to maintain that which JESUS ALREADY MAINTAINS.....

I attend the church of the body of Christ, and I do not believe that every event was recorded

Again,,,,if it's JESUS maintaining what is required of me and I have nothing to do with it...
It means HE is responsible for sin. Have you thought this over?

THEREFORE since you REFUSE to answer, we can all assume you are a member of a psuedo Christian cult, and stop reading your Posts.

THEREFORE since you REFUSE to answer, we can all assume you are a member of a psuedo Christian cult, and stop reading your Posts.

VCO, turning 70, you are my elder, so I will not disrespect you.....I will only say that I disagree.

I can deal with that. And I thank you for the courtesy. I still would like to know WHAT TYPE OF CHURCH YOU GO TO, not the Specific Building you Fellowship and Worship at.

Like I said the Church that I attend, is a COMMUNITY, non-denominational, conservative, evangelical type of Church.

The Conservative part, means we are the opposite of Liberals, we do not ordain women, we believe that Tongues were an Apostolic Gift only for the Apostles, we spend MORE TIME Teaching and Expositing the WORD than any other part of our Service. One Hour Sermons, and 40 minutes on the rest. Here is a Doctrinal Statement of Faith, that I Totally agree with, but it in NOT my Church's Statement. Our STATEMENT is TOO long to fit hear.


1. Of the Scriptures
We believe that the Holy Bible, as originally written, was verbally inspired (II Timothy 3:16-17) and the product of Spirit controlled men (II Peter 1:19-21), and therefore, has truth without any error (John 17:17). We believe the sixty-six books of the Bible to be the true center of Christian unity and the supreme standard by which all human conduct, and opinions, shall be tried (Jude 1:3).

2. Of the True Godhead
We believe that there is only one living and true God (Deuteronomy 6:4; I Timothy 2:5), infinite in every excellence; that in the unity of the Godhead there are three persons -- the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit -- yet one in substance and equal in every divine perfection (Isaiah 48:16; Matthew 28:19), and executing distinct but harmonious offices in the great work of creation (Genesis 1:1) and redemption (John 3:16).

a. Father:
We believe in God the Father, not as being the one God, but merely one distinction of the True God. The Son has voluntarily elected to do the will of the Father in dependence upon the Spirit. He is the Father of creation (Malachi 2:10), Israel (Exodus 4:22), Jesus Christ (John 20:17) (not a relationship of derivation or inferiority), and the believers (Romans 8:15-16).

b. Son:
We believe that Jesus Christ, the second member of the Trinity is co-equal with God the Father, and all the attributes of God are manifest in Him (John 1:1). When the fullness of time was come, Christ became incarnate by a supernatural conception and virgin birth (Isaiah 7:14) for the purpose of becoming "the sacrifice for sin". By His vicarious death, He made possible a reconciliation of depraved man with a holy and just God (Hebrews 10:12). We further believe that He physically died and arose from the grave. Upon completing His post-resurrection ministry, He ascended on high where He is presently interceding for the believers (Hebrews 7:15), and shall subsequently return for the believers (I Thessalonians 4:15-17) and set up His earthly kingdom (Luke 1:33).

c. Spirit:
We believe that the Holy Spirit is a Divine Person (John 16:13), equal with the Father and Son and of the same substance and nature; that He convicts of sin, righteousness, and judgment (II Corinthians 13:14), bears witness to the truth (John 14:16), is the Agent of the New Birth (John 3:6), and that He seals, endues (I Corinthians 12:7), guides, teaches, witnesses to, sanctifies, and helps the believer, indwelling every true Child of God (Romans 8:14-27).

3. Of Angels:
Angels are created (Colossians 1:16; Psalm 148:5), spirit-beings of various rank and order. This company of everlasting beings is super-human in intelligence and strength. They were created holy and good (Genesis 1:31), but due to sin many fell from their holy state and are now confirmed in wickedness (Isaiah 14; Ezekiel 28). Those who preserved their integrity are God's messengers (Hebrews 1:14), whereas the fallen angels execute Satan's desires in hindering God's work and afflicting God's people.

We believe in the distinct personality of Satan (Matthew 4:1-3), that he is the unholy god of this age (II Corinthians 4:4), author of all powers of darkness and sin, and is destined to the judgment of an eternal justice in the lake of fire (Revelations 20:10).

4. Of the Creation:
We believe that God created the heavens and the earth (Genesis 1-2), including all life (Colossians 1:16-17; John 1:3), "each after its own kind" (Genesis 1:24), by direct act, and not by the process of evolution (Psalm 33:6).

5. Of Man:
We believe that man in the person of the first Adam, was created in Innocence but by voluntary transgression fell into sin (Genesis 3), thus plunging the whole race into condemnation (Romans 5:12) and total depravity (Ephesians 2:1) in consequence of which all men are born sinners and are directed by their sin natures to willful acts of sin. Thus having knowledge of their sin and the manifestation of the power of God, are without excuse before God (Romans 1:18-2:1). Apart from God's work of grace all men would be on their way to eternal torment (Revelation 20:15). God enabling some men to receive the light of the glorious Gospel of Christ, they are then passed from death to eternal life forever secure in Heaven (John 10:28- 29; Romans 8:29-39).

6. Of Salvation:
We believe that the only escape from the condemnation of sin is through the redemption wrought by Jesus Christ, when He voluntarily took upon Him a human body and nature, yet without sin (Hebrews 4:15), and by His death made a full and vicarious atonement sufficient for all sin (I John 2:2), that His atonement consisted not in setting us an example by His death as a martyr, but a voluntary substitution of Himself in the sinner's place, the Just dying for the unjust (I Peter 3:18).

We believe that in order to be saved, sinners must be born again (John 3:3), that the new birth is a new creation in Christ Jesus; that it is instantaneous; that in the new birth the one dead in trespasses and in sins is indwelt by the Holy Spirit and receives eternal life, the free gift of God (John 3:16; Romans 3:24); and are eternally secure in Christ. The new creation is brought about in a manner above our comprehension, solely by the power of the Holy Spirit in connection with divine truth, so as to secure our voluntary obedience to the gospel; that its proper evidence appears in the holy fruits of repentance and faith and newness of life (II Corinthians 5:17; Ephesians 2:8).

7. Of the Church:
We believe that the true spiritual church is a New Testament institution unknown to the Old Testament prophets (Matthew 16:18); established by Jesus Christ, who is its sole Head (Ephesians 1:22-23); revealed through the holy Apostles; empowered and perpetuated by the Holy Spirit (Acts 1:8); His "body" for service (I Corinthians 12:13-28); and His "bride" for glory. It began with Pentecost, after the ascension of Christ and will be consummated at the coming of Christ in the Rapture (I Thessalonians 4:13-18).

We believe that there are two church ordinances: Baptism and the Lord's Supper. Baptism is the immersion of a believer in water and is properly called "Believer's Baptism" (Acts 8:36-39). It sets forth in a beautiful and solemn way our faith in a crucified, buried, and risen Saviour, with the effects of that faith in our lives as it produces death to sin and resurrection to a new life (Romans 6:3-5). Baptism is a prerequisite to the privileges of church relation (Acts 2:41). The Lord's Supper is the commemoration of our Lord's death until He come and our continual fellowship with Him, should be preceded by baptism and always careful self-examination (I Corinthians 11:23-32).

8. Of Last Things:
We believe in the bodily (Acts 1:4), personal (John 14:3), premillennial return of Jesus Christ (Revelation 19:11-20); that He will come before the seven year tribulation period (Revelation 3:10; I Thessalonians 5:9) to catch away His church, and that He will come with his church at the close of the tribulation to judge the living nations (Matthew 25:31-46) and to set up His kingdom on earth (Luke 1:33).

We believe in the resurrection of the bodies of the dead (I Corinthians 15:12-58) that believers who die in Jesus will be raised at the coming of Christ for His church and caught up with transformed living saints to meet the Lord in the air (I Thessalonians 4:13-18) and that the wicked dead will be raised at the close of the Millennial Kingdom (Revelation 20:4-5), and stand in their bodies at the Great White Throne of judgment to receive their final doom (Revelation 20:11-15).

I can deal with that. And I thank you for the courtesy. I still would like to know WHAT TYPE OF CHURCH YOU GO TO, not the Specific Building you Fellowship and Worship at.

Like I said the Church that I attend, is a COMMUNITY, non-denominational, conservative, evangelical type of Church.

The Conservative part, means we are the opposite of Liberals, we do not ordain women, we believe that Tongues were an Apostolic Gift only for the Apostles, we spend MORE TIME Teaching and Expositing the WORD than any other part of our Service. One Hour Sermons, and 40 minutes on the rest. Here is a Doctrinal Statement of Faith, that I Totally agree with, but it in NOT my Church's Statement. Our STATEMENT is TOO long to fit hear.


1. Of the Scriptures
We believe that the Holy Bible, as originally written, was verbally inspired (II Timothy 3:16-17) and the product of Spirit controlled men (II Peter 1:19-21), and therefore, has truth without any error (John 17:17). We believe the sixty-six books of the Bible to be the true center of Christian unity and the supreme standard by which all human conduct, and opinions, shall be tried (Jude 1:3).

2. Of the True Godhead
We believe that there is only one living and true God (Deuteronomy 6:4; I Timothy 2:5), infinite in every excellence; that in the unity of the Godhead there are three persons -- the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit -- yet one in substance and equal in every divine perfection (Isaiah 48:16; Matthew 28:19), and executing distinct but harmonious offices in the great work of creation (Genesis 1:1) and redemption (John 3:16).

a. Father:
We believe in God the Father, not as being the one God, but merely one distinction of the True God. The Son has voluntarily elected to do the will of the Father in dependence upon the Spirit. He is the Father of creation (Malachi 2:10), Israel (Exodus 4:22), Jesus Christ (John 20:17) (not a relationship of derivation or inferiority), and the believers (Romans 8:15-16).

b. Son:
We believe that Jesus Christ, the second member of the Trinity is co-equal with God the Father, and all the attributes of God are manifest in Him (John 1:1). When the fullness of time was come, Christ became incarnate by a supernatural conception and virgin birth (Isaiah 7:14) for the purpose of becoming "the sacrifice for sin". By His vicarious death, He made possible a reconciliation of depraved man with a holy and just God (Hebrews 10:12). We further believe that He physically died and arose from the grave. Upon completing His post-resurrection ministry, He ascended on high where He is presently interceding for the believers (Hebrews 7:15), and shall subsequently return for the believers (I Thessalonians 4:15-17) and set up His earthly kingdom (Luke 1:33).

c. Spirit:
We believe that the Holy Spirit is a Divine Person (John 16:13), equal with the Father and Son and of the same substance and nature; that He convicts of sin, righteousness, and judgment (II Corinthians 13:14), bears witness to the truth (John 14:16), is the Agent of the New Birth (John 3:6), and that He seals, endues (I Corinthians 12:7), guides, teaches, witnesses to, sanctifies, and helps the believer, indwelling every true Child of God (Romans 8:14-27).

3. Of Angels:
Angels are created (Colossians 1:16; Psalm 148:5), spirit-beings of various rank and order. This company of everlasting beings is super-human in intelligence and strength. They were created holy and good (Genesis 1:31), but due to sin many fell from their holy state and are now confirmed in wickedness (Isaiah 14; Ezekiel 28). Those who preserved their integrity are God's messengers (Hebrews 1:14), whereas the fallen angels execute Satan's desires in hindering God's work and afflicting God's people.

We believe in the distinct personality of Satan (Matthew 4:1-3), that he is the unholy god of this age (II Corinthians 4:4), author of all powers of darkness and sin, and is destined to the judgment of an eternal justice in the lake of fire (Revelations 20:10).

4. Of the Creation:
We believe that God created the heavens and the earth (Genesis 1-2), including all life (Colossians 1:16-17; John 1:3), "each after its own kind" (Genesis 1:24), by direct act, and not by the process of evolution (Psalm 33:6).

5. Of Man:
We believe that man in the person of the first Adam, was created in Innocence but by voluntary transgression fell into sin (Genesis 3), thus plunging the whole race into condemnation (Romans 5:12) and total depravity (Ephesians 2:1) in consequence of which all men are born sinners and are directed by their sin natures to willful acts of sin. Thus having knowledge of their sin and the manifestation of the power of God, are without excuse before God (Romans 1:18-2:1). Apart from God's work of grace all men would be on their way to eternal torment (Revelation 20:15). God enabling some men to receive the light of the glorious Gospel of Christ, they are then passed from death to eternal life forever secure in Heaven (John 10:28- 29; Romans 8:29-39).

6. Of Salvation:
We believe that the only escape from the condemnation of sin is through the redemption wrought by Jesus Christ, when He voluntarily took upon Him a human body and nature, yet without sin (Hebrews 4:15), and by His death made a full and vicarious atonement sufficient for all sin (I John 2:2), that His atonement consisted not in setting us an example by His death as a martyr, but a voluntary substitution of Himself in the sinner's place, the Just dying for the unjust (I Peter 3:18).

We believe that in order to be saved, sinners must be born again (John 3:3), that the new birth is a new creation in Christ Jesus; that it is instantaneous; that in the new birth the one dead in trespasses and in sins is indwelt by the Holy Spirit and receives eternal life, the free gift of God (John 3:16; Romans 3:24); and are eternally secure in Christ. The new creation is brought about in a manner above our comprehension, solely by the power of the Holy Spirit in connection with divine truth, so as to secure our voluntary obedience to the gospel; that its proper evidence appears in the holy fruits of repentance and faith and newness of life (II Corinthians 5:17; Ephesians 2:8).

7. Of the Church:
We believe that the true spiritual church is a New Testament institution unknown to the Old Testament prophets (Matthew 16:18); established by Jesus Christ, who is its sole Head (Ephesians 1:22-23); revealed through the holy Apostles; empowered and perpetuated by the Holy Spirit (Acts 1:8); His "body" for service (I Corinthians 12:13-28); and His "bride" for glory. It began with Pentecost, after the ascension of Christ and will be consummated at the coming of Christ in the Rapture (I Thessalonians 4:13-18).

We believe that there are two church ordinances: Baptism and the Lord's Supper. Baptism is the immersion of a believer in water and is properly called "Believer's Baptism" (Acts 8:36-39). It sets forth in a beautiful and solemn way our faith in a crucified, buried, and risen Saviour, with the effects of that faith in our lives as it produces death to sin and resurrection to a new life (Romans 6:3-5). Baptism is a prerequisite to the privileges of church relation (Acts 2:41). The Lord's Supper is the commemoration of our Lord's death until He come and our continual fellowship with Him, should be preceded by baptism and always careful self-examination (I Corinthians 11:23-32).

8. Of Last Things:
We believe in the bodily (Acts 1:4), personal (John 14:3), premillennial return of Jesus Christ (Revelation 19:11-20); that He will come before the seven year tribulation period (Revelation 3:10; I Thessalonians 5:9) to catch away His church, and that He will come with his church at the close of the tribulation to judge the living nations (Matthew 25:31-46) and to set up His kingdom on earth (Luke 1:33).

We believe in the resurrection of the bodies of the dead (I Corinthians 15:12-58) that believers who die in Jesus will be raised at the coming of Christ for His church and caught up with transformed living saints to meet the Lord in the air (I Thessalonians 4:13-18) and that the wicked dead will be raised at the close of the Millennial Kingdom (Revelation 20:4-5), and stand in their bodies at the Great White Throne of judgment to receive their final doom (Revelation 20:11-15).

I would ADD this statement to the SECOND PARAGRAPH, First Sentence, of Statement #6. Of Salvation:

We believe that in order to be saved, sinners must sincerely repent, be born again (John 3:3), that the new birth is a new creation in Christ Jesus; that it is instantaneous; and should NEVER be Confused with SANCTIFICATION which is an ongoing work of the Holy Spirit, maturing and conforming our human Body, to be Like Christ, which will not be PERFECT until the Resurrection.

My father and uncle were Pastors growing up, I was raised in a southern baptist church, conservative. I attended a community non-denominational church for awhile also, did not agree with the doctrine though...very liberal..In recent years when living closer to town, my family attended another church considered conservative, non-denominational with doctrine in line with what you listed....baptism was not considered mandatory, but as a show of faith for those that desired it.

The preacher came from a Baptist Church, and I enjoyed his sermons. I have been studying everyday and currently live far from a church that would feel right for my family, but have not given up on looking. In the mean time it has been nice to read scripture everyday and reach out to learn more of the word...

I would be happy to discuss how I have come to believe in some things, that may be contrary to what is in the main stream church. 1 thing that will never change, is the cross. Christ died for us all, he took my place, and this humbles me everyday... For the most part, I am in lock step with your doctrine....but, some personal life experiences have brought me back to scripture, and as I ask the lord for wisdom and knowledge, I feel he will not lead me astray.

Again, I hope @BillG sees this AND your answer. He feels I don't post enough scripture and/or do not answer to scripture

Fran I have no problem talking to people, even those I disagree with.
Just like you and I do.

But what gets my goat is when you post Bible verses with your thoughts it is completely ignored and Bible verses are quoted back with no thoughts.

...“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’ “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’ “The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.’ “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’ “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’ “He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” Matthew 25:31-46

I did not say that but I can see you can say that



That paragraph was phrased incorrectly. It should have been "when people"

Rephrased as

"When people post Bible verses with their thoughts it is completely ignored and Bible verses are quoted back with no thoughts"

Sorry about that.

After a casual reading of the sheep and goats (Matthew 25:31-46), these verses "on the surface" may seem to suggest that salvation is the result of good works. Yet all Scripture proves itself right and non-contradictory when compared with the totality of Scripture. This passage has to be taken alongside the whole of Scripture. Jesus was not advocating salvation by works. That would be contrary to Romans 4:4-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5 etc... One's works are an effect of (and therefore indication of) one's salvation status, rather than being a cause of one's salvation. This is not performance based salvation, but salvation based performance.

The good deeds mentioned in Matthew 25:35-36 are merely the fruit that will be manifest in the lives of the sheep. Those who are placed at Christ's right hand are not there based on the merits of their good deeds, but because of the imputed righteousness of God by faith (Romans 4:2-6; Philippians 3:9). When works are mentioned in connection with salvation, the works are always the result of, not the condition of, receiving salvation. The stress is on works as a manifestation of one's faith (or lack thereof) and not simply on faith from which these works follow. So it is understandable that in this context, Matthew would stress the works done in love (faith works through love - Galatians 5:6) which are a manifestation of faith by which one receives eternal life.

*Notice how love for other Christians is an indication of one's salvation status: 1 John 3:10 - In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. He who practices righteousness and loves his brother does so BECAUSE he is "of God" not to become of God. 1 John 3:14 - We know that we have (past tense) passed from death to life, because we love our brothers (present tense). Loving our brothers is the result of, not the condition of passing from death to life. 1 John 4:7 - Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.

Hi Dcon, Fran misinterprets scripture all day long and now we are back to John 15:1-6 about the Vine Dresser and cutting off branches. All believers will produce some fruit at some time at different amounts, even if you are only producing raisins it is still producing fruit. John15:1-6 does not support the loss of your eternal salvation.

I get the idea that you would like to see Fran repent and come to a saving faith in our Savior. "With God all things are possible."

What no more fishin' trips?

Matthew19:25,26
25) When the disciples heard this they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?”
26) But Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but "with God all things are possible.”

After a casual reading of the sheep and goats (Matthew 25:31-46), these verses "on the surface" may seem to suggest that salvation is the result of good works. Yet all Scripture proves itself right and non-contradictory when compared with the totality of Scripture. This passage has to be taken alongside the whole of Scripture. Jesus was not advocating salvation by works. That would be contrary to Romans 4:4-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5 etc... One's works are an effect of (and therefore indication of) one's salvation status, rather than being a cause of one's salvation. This is not performance based salvation, but salvation based performance.

The good deeds mentioned in Matthew 25:35-36 are merely the fruit that will be manifest in the lives of the sheep. Those who are placed at Christ's right hand are not there based on the merits of their good deeds, but because of the imputed righteousness of God by faith (Romans 4:2-6; Philippians 3:9). When works are mentioned in connection with salvation, the works are always the result of, not the condition of, receiving salvation. The stress is on works as a manifestation of one's faith (or lack thereof) and not simply on faith from which these works follow. So it is understandable that in this context, Matthew would stress the works done in love (faith works through love - Galatians 5:6) which are a manifestation of faith by which one receives eternal life.

*Notice how love for other Christians is an indication of one's salvation status: 1 John 3:10 - In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. He who practices righteousness and loves his brother does so BECAUSE he is "of God" not to become of God. 1 John 3:14 - We know that we have (past tense) passed from death to life, because we love our brothers (present tense). Loving our brothers is the result of, not the condition of passing from death to life. 1 John 4:7 - Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.

BOOOOORRRRRIIIIIINNNNNNG.

So what are you saying?
Paul knew more what Jesus meant to say than what Jesus knew He wanted to say?

HOW does one go against JESUS' own words???