Open Theism

Given that God created time, then I think it would follow that he can exist apart from time.

supposed two people on Earth, then one gets in a spaceship and flies at near the speed of light away from Earth. As I understand relativity, time will pass at a different rate for the spaceship person than the earth person. In that situation, at what rate is time moving for God? Or does the question not make sense because God is everywhere at once?

I do the same and investigated both Calvinism and Arminianism. I found after investigating the online documentation of both to be very scriptural. Going back to 212 through 500 the early elders created the creeds defining what a Christian must believe. They stated everything outside of the creeds was to agree to disagree. Calvinism vs Arminianism is one of the issues.

Both sides have online documents detailing their positions with scripture references. Since this contraversy is outside of the creeds it is agree to disagree since both are very biblical.

Now you are going with Einsteins theory of relativity. In the almost century since it was released there have been some flaws found. Overall correct when the corrections are made. In science there is theory and laws. When the theory is tested by the scientific method and peer reviewed it becomes a law. Even then new discoveries can modify the law. In analyzing the formulas of what happens in the atomic bomb it was found some neutrons disappeared. Their destruction released the energy of the bomb. So the law about matter can't be made or destroyed is modified by adding "by ordinary means". Please point to testing of this differences in time.

The difference in this what Calvinism and Arminianism disagree about. Calvinism teaches God reaches in and touches people to accept Jesus while Armenianism teaches that people will just come to know Jesus without God’s intervention. Romans 8 verse 7 is the crux of the issue. Understanding it in context is where both sides disagree. KJV puts it in Romans 8:7 "the carnal mind is enmity against God". Here is the verse portion in context with 3 translations, KJV, NIV, and AMPC. How this is understood divides Calvinism and Arminianism. I lean towards Calvinism but still understand the Armenianism view. Read the scripture and make up your own mind. Notice AMPC has a lot more words than the KJV and NIV.

Romans 8 King James Version (KJV)
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

NIV
Life Through the Spirit
1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
5 Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. 7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.
9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you.
12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.
14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.

Romans 8 AMPC
1 Therefore, [there is] now no condemnation (no adjudging guilty of wrong) for those who are in Christ Jesus, who live [and] walk not after the dictates of the flesh, but after the dictates of the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life [which is] in Christ Jesus [the law of our new being] has freed me from the law of sin and of death.
3 For God has done what the Law could not do, [its power] being weakened by the flesh [the entire nature of man without the Holy Spirit]. Sending His own Son in the guise of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, [God] condemned sin in the flesh [subdued, overcame,]deprived it of its power over all who accept that sacrifice],
4 So that the righteous and just requirement of the Law might be fully met in us who live and move not in the ways of the flesh but in the ways of the Spirit [our lives governed not by the standards and according to the dictates of the flesh, but controlled by the Holy Spirit].
5 For those who are according to the flesh and are controlled by its unholy desires set their minds on and pursue those things which gratify the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit and are controlled by the desires of the Spirit set their minds on and seek those things which gratify the [Holy] Spirit.
6 Now the mind of the flesh [which is sense and reason without the Holy Spirit] is death [death that comprises all the miseries arising from sin, both here and hereafter]. But the mind of the [Holy] Spirit is life and [soul] peace [both now and forever].
7 [That is] because the mind of the flesh [with its carnal thoughts and purposes] is hostile to God, for it does not submit itself to God’s Law; indeed it cannot.
8 So then those who are living the life of the flesh [catering to the appetites and impulses of their carnal nature] cannot please or satisfy God, or be acceptable to Him.
9 But you are not living the life of the flesh, you are living the life of the Spirit, if the [Holy] Spirit of God [really] dwells within you [directs and controls you]. But if anyone does not possess the [Holy] Spirit of Christ, he is none of His [he does not belong to Christ, is not truly a child of God].
10 But if Christ lives in you, [then although] your [natural] body is dead by reason of sin and guilt, the spirit is alive because of [the] righteousness [that He imputes to you].
11 And if the Spirit of Him Who raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in you, [then] He Who raised up Christ Jesus from the dead will also restore to life your mortal (short-lived, perishable) bodies through His Spirit Who dwells in you.
12 So then, brethren, we are debtors, but not to the flesh [we are not obligated to our carnal nature], to live [a life ruled by the standards set up by the dictates] of the flesh.
13 For if you live according to [the dictates of] the flesh, you will surely die. But if through the power of the [Holy] Spirit you are [habitually] putting to death (making extinct, deadening) the [evil] deeds prompted by the body, you shall [really and genuinely] live forever.
14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

Follow Scripture and leave the man made creeds alone.

With all due respect brother. If its 500AD how can it be considered EARLY? Thats centuries after Jesus and teh Apostles.

Not sure that holds a lot of weight!

I mentioned the theory of relativity in my opening post on this thread, #165.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Experimental_testing_of_time_dilation
"A variety of experiments confirming this effect have been performed both in the atmosphere and in particle accelerators."


I agree that relativity is generally considered to be a theory, not a law, although I'm not sure who it is exactly who decides these things.


I think it is well enough established that it is reasonable to say in a forum such as this that "time relates to physical objects."

ROTFL
You ignore the fact that there are many different gospel preaching denominations that differ about the meaning of the scripture. From 212 to 500 several creeds were created that define what a Christian must believe. With somewhat differing wording they all say mostly the same thing with the exception of the 2nd Nicene Creed. It was created to push certain Catholic dogma. What those early elsers stated was everything outside of the creeds was to agree to disagree. While all gospel preaching denominations adhere to the creeds and solo scriptorum differing opinions about several concepts arising out of the scriptures causes the different denominations. All adhere to the Bible. I get very tired of those who claim they are right and the rest are wrong. The Quinquarticular Controversy is a great example of this. Gospel preaching denominations adhere to Calvinism and Arminianism with shades of meaning in between. This is just one set of differences. An example I am very familiar with is the Reformed Church in America and the Presbyterian Church in America. There is a very small difference of opinion about a small theological point. Twice the leading elders in each denomination tried to merge together but that one small difference ended the attempt.

Short time to edit
I served as a deacon and later an elder in the RCA and later as elder in 2 diffreent PCA churches. Moved twice by my company. I currently attend an independent church.

Nonsense and an old, worn out, and erroneous stance you've taken. The controversy is outside of Scripture on the Arminian side and it is false. Therefore Scripture shows Arminianism to be in error, creeds aside. Calvinism is Biblical as proven by contextual exegesis of Scripture.

With all due respect you show little faith in Scripture nor do you reference Scripture and instead place lots of faith in Bible numerology and creeds. Stick with Scripture, not websites, creeds and sensationalism or your track record of being this or that in this or that church. You're not solid, you're in error. 2 Timothy 4:1-4.

Heyy.

Whats up bro

Nice to see you are back

Where were you?

God is limited.......by his Holy nature and character..........HE cannot do anything that contradicts either or.....for example.....It is IMPOSSIBLE for GOD to lie..............

Not properly dividing Scripture rightly leads to different denominations.

Hey thanks bro! Been lurking a bit, sometimes it gets old reading the total error and nonsense so I choose just to not respond! But it's still like a car accident, you just have to look!

Lol! Yes sometimes it feels the heretics OUTNUMBER regular Christians

But I believe this was predicted by Jesus when He said shall He find faith on earth when He returns?

I take that to mean = Massive apostasy, and the saved Christians outnumbered by professing fake Christians!

Prove your assertion. Here is the Quinquarticular Controversy with at the end a Biblical defence of both Calvinism and Arminianism. Refer to the Arminianism defense in detail and explain where the referenced scripture is in error defending the Arminianism point of view.

Use scripture to refute the scripture annotating the Arminianism text. It is the last site referenced. Keep in mind I lean towards Calvinism but am unable to refute the text in question. The elders from 212 to 500 created the creeds to define what a Christian MUST BELIEVE. The elders stated any Biblical issue outside of the creeds is to agree to disagree. Calvinism vs Arminianism is one of these. Both are backed up by scripture. Have fun attempting to refute the Biblical Defense of Arminianism.

Quinquarticular Controversy
The diametrically opposed Calvinist and Arminian 5 points

Reformed/Calvinism
TULIP
1. Total depravity
2. Unconditional election
3. Limited atonement
4. Irresistible grace
5. Perserverance of the Saints

Arminianism
1. Free will or Human ability
2. Conditional election
3. Universal Redemption or General Atonement
4. The Holy Spirit can be Effectually Resisted
5. Falling from Grace

For a deeper discussion of the differences go to these web sites,

https://www.gotquestions.org/Calvinism-vs-Arminianism.html

Arminianism vs Calvinism Controversial Passages
https://www.xenos.org/essays/calvinism-arminianism-controversial-passages

There are denominations adhering to Calvinism, Arminianism, and parts of each creating a spectrum of different views of these issues.

Calvinism Arminianism debate
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Calvinist–Arminian_debate

Biblical Defense of Calvinism
https://www.fivesolas.com/tulipscriptures.htm

Biblical Defense of Arminianism
http://www.evidenceunseen.com/theology/calvinism-versus-arminianism/biblical-defense-of-arminianism/

That is where we are today. The US during colonial and most of the history of the US was a Christian country. Starting in the 1880s the church came under attack by secular ministers taking over all of the major protestant denominations in order to access the churches money, leaving only the sub denominations and independent churches still preaching the gospel message. Gary North wrote a book "Crossed Fingers" documenting the take over of the Presbyterian USA. Almost half of the US population goes to church but only a sliver hear the gospel message. Thus the USA is currently a secular country. Historically an eclipse going from the eastern to western border of a country condemns that country. It will then fall from a leading country to third world status. This has happened to the US and in 2024 another eclipse will cross from northeast to southwest crossing 7 cities named Salem. Thus making a big X on the US. This is an example of God knowing the end from the beginning in order to set the orbit of the moon to create these eclipses at the appropriate time. The US is doubly condemned for turning its back on God and Jesus.

I personally lean towards Calvinism but researched Arminianism and found it Biblical with the evidence here. Refute the following especially the Biblical Defense of Calvinism and Arminianism at the bottom of the file about the Quinquarticular Controversy I keep. Have fun refuting it. Keep in mind that the early elders from 212 to 500 created the creeds that define what a Christian must believe and stated any other Biblical issue outside of the creeds was to agree to disagree. Look at all of the various gospel preaching denominations seperate by differences of opinion over the interpretation of areas of scripture. Explain away these differences of opinion over issues in scripture. Refute away!!

Quinquarticular Controversy
The diametrically opposed Calvinist and Arminian 5 points

Reformed/Calvinism
TULIP
1. Total depravity
2. Unconditional election
3. Limited atonement
4. Irresistible grace
5. Perserverance of the Saints

Arminianism
1. Free will or Human ability
2. Conditional election
3. Universal Redemption or General Atonement
4. The Holy Spirit can be Effectually Resisted
5. Falling from Grace

For a deeper discussion of the differences go to these web sites,

https://www.gotquestions.org/Calvinism-vs-Arminianism.html

Arminianism vs Calvinism Controversial Passages
https://www.xenos.org/essays/calvinism-arminianism-controversial-passages

There are denominations adhering to Calvinism, Arminianism, and parts of each creating a spectrum of different views of these issues.

Calvinism Arminianism debate
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Calvinist–Arminian_debate

Biblical Defense of Calvinism
https://www.fivesolas.com/tulipscriptures.htm

Biblical Defense of Arminianism
http://www.evidenceunseen.com/theology/calvinism-versus-arminianism/biblical-defense-of-arminianism/

You're as Calvinist as Roger Olson and Leighton Flowers.

It's already been done, try the Synod of Dort, better known as The Remonstrants. Just because you haven't the ability to accept or note its refutation doesn't undo the fact it's been Biblically refuted and dismantled.

Back to your acrostic algebra and Biblical numerology?