Salvation by works or faith isn't the point.

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WalkingTree

WalkingTree

Active member
#41
Jan 13, 2019
168
100
43
#41
seed_time_harvest said:
Sounds like they are going to have to learn what Paul meant when he said all that stuff I count as dung.
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But did they not hear? Did Israel not understand? Did God reject his people? Was there not even in Paul's time a remnant of Jewish believers chosen by grace? All Romans 10&11.
​
7 What then? What the people of Israel sought so earnestly they did not obtain. The elect among them did, but the others were hardened,​

Do you see who the elect are? Not out in the nations, but among other Jews who were hardened. Why has the reformed church always sought to change or erase the identity of Israel? And before you all start calling me a Jewish supremist. No, I don't believe the elect are Israel alone, but also includes all those called by His name in the nations. The offer goes out to all, but it's roots are Jewish whether one likes it or not. The fruit is for all the world. Sadly, the reformation played identity politics long before the social justice movement of today. I've started to recognize the spirit behind the division throughout the ages. It's the same spirit. Divide and conquer.

What if the message was really about who can come in instead of who has to stay out? What if playing the victim is actually a character of the fallen ones? How else would Jesus fool the devil but by playing the victim, all the while being the victor. I see a victorious King who laid down and picked up his own life. Dying to let his harlot of a wife free to marry her again after resurrection. Both resurrected to glory. He came down to death to return us. He will restore all who know him along the way. But to reject Israel is to reject Jesus himself. Paul points out the faults to lead all to her victory. He magnifies Israel's sin ONLY to glory in her redemption. Should we not act the same?
 
A

Adstar

Senior Member
#42
Jul 24, 2016
7,426
3,479
113
#42
WalkingTree said:
Yet your message is "The Jews rejected him". You're communicating that when...if you can not identify how Acts 21 states otherwise I don't know how to help you. Except to say you probably shouldn't use blanket statements like "the Jews".
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When Jesus came physically onto the earth and preached His message to the Jewish nation apart from the 12 disciples and their friends the vast majority of the Jewish nation rejected Jesus.. That's why He was successfully crucified.. If the majority of the Jewish people had accepted Jesus as their Messiah, no way in hell would the Jewish religious authorities along with the Roman civil authorities succeed in executing Jesus in plain sight the way they did in front of the people of Jerusalem...

The scripture you quoted tells of the Jews who came to accept Jesus AFTER His time on earth was over and He had ascended into Heaven... When Jesus was alive these same people had Rejected Jesus.. So what eternally grateful said was True.. The Jews as a nation did reject Jesus when He came with His message.. Just because later on a number of them accepted Jesus after first rejecting Him does not mean they did not reject Him in the first instance..

So there is no contradiction between what Eternally Grateful posted and the scripture you posted.. Both are true..
 
seed_time_harvest

seed_time_harvest

Senior Member
#43
Dec 9, 2011
13,741
1,728
113
#43
Meditator said:
I heard a story about a Sufi saint, her name was Rabia of Basra. She would walk down the street carrying a container of water in one hand and container of fire in the other. People wondered why?
She said that the water was to put out the flames of hell, and the fire was to burn down heaven!
The point she was trying to make was that she didn't practice her religion to avoid hell or to attain salvation, her motivation was out of love for God, not for what would happen to her. She herself didn't matter. I think she would have willingly gone to hell if that was what God wanted, out of love for God.

In the same way Abraham would have taken his son's life if God wanted him to. That is what James gave as an example of faith. View attachment 194262

This whole debate on salvation is very worthy, but the emphasis seems to be on how to avoid hell and attain heaven. If you have faith you will be ok, but would it be better to emphasise love, devotion and submission?
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I never saw anything like what you are talking about unless you are talking about those that believe salvation depends on works.
 
seed_time_harvest

seed_time_harvest

Senior Member
#44
Dec 9, 2011
13,741
1,728
113
#44
WalkingTree said:
But did they not hear? Did Israel not understand? Did God reject his people? Was there not even in Paul's time a remnant of Jewish believers chosen by grace? All Romans 10&11.
​
7 What then? What the people of Israel sought so earnestly they did not obtain. The elect among them did, but the others were hardened,​

Do you see who the elect are? Not out in the nations, but among other Jews who were hardened. Why has the reformed church always sought to change or erase the identity of Israel? And before you all start calling me a Jewish supremist. No, I don't believe the elect are Israel alone, but also includes all those called by His name in the nations. The offer goes out to all, but it's roots are Jewish whether one likes it or not. The fruit is for all the world. Sadly, the reformation played identity politics long before the social justice movement of today. I've started to recognize the spirit behind the division throughout the ages. It's the same spirit. Divide and conquer.

What if the message was really about who can come in instead of who has to stay out? What if playing the victim is actually a character of the fallen ones? How else would Jesus fool the devil but by playing the victim, all the while being the victor. I see a victorious King who laid down and picked up his own life. Dying to let his harlot of a wife free to marry her again after resurrection. Both resurrected to glory. He came down to death to return us. He will restore all who know him along the way. But to reject Israel is to reject Jesus himself. Paul points out the faults to lead all to her victory. He magnifies Israel's sin ONLY to glory in her redemption. Should we not act the same?
Click to expand...
Paul was born under law.He later was under Grace.
Under law the Spirit came on them.Under Grace,the Spirit was In them and salvation was by Grace through faith has always been the key to the hope of glory.

The elect are those who are circumcised In the heart not the flesh.
 
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