Salvation by works or faith isn't the point.

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Dec 22, 2018
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#1
I heard a story about a Sufi saint, her name was Rabia of Basra. She would walk down the street carrying a container of water in one hand and container of fire in the other. People wondered why?
She said that the water was to put out the flames of hell, and the fire was to burn down heaven!
The point she was trying to make was that she didn't practice her religion to avoid hell or to attain salvation, her motivation was out of love for God, not for what would happen to her. She herself didn't matter. I think she would have willingly gone to hell if that was what God wanted, out of love for God.

In the same way Abraham would have taken his son's life if God wanted him to. That is what James gave as an example of faith. pm-22774-medium.jpg

This whole debate on salvation is very worthy, but the emphasis seems to be on how to avoid hell and attain heaven. If you have faith you will be ok, but would it be better to emphasise love, devotion and submission?
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#2
if you do not get the salvation part right, non of the rest matters, The jews loved God, did all those things out of that love, (even Saul, who became paul. Killed Jesus followers because of his love for God) yet when God sent his son, The jews rejected him, Because they did not get the salvation part right.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
24,733
13,400
113
#3
While your story is mildly interesting, it has nothing to do with biblical Christianity.

Salvation is by faith in Jesus Christ and His sacrifice for our sin.

Everything else (love, etc.) flows from the relationship we have with God through Jesus. That relationship cannot be attained any other way.
 

claudia22

New member
Feb 12, 2019
21
15
3
#4
While your story is mildly interesting, it has nothing to do with biblical Christianity.

Salvation is by faith in Jesus Christ and His sacrifice for our sin.

Everything else (love, etc.) flows from the relationship we have with God through Jesus. That relationship cannot be attained any other way.
 

claudia22

New member
Feb 12, 2019
21
15
3
#5
While your story is mildly interesting, it has nothing to do with biblical Christianity.

Salvation is by faith in Jesus Christ and His sacrifice for our sin.

Everything else (love, etc.) flows from the relationship we have with God through Jesus. That relationship cannot be attained any other way.
PRAISE JESUS
YES I AGREE SALVATION IS BY FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST..
GLORY TO JESUS
 

WalkingTree

Active member
Jan 13, 2019
168
100
43
#6
if you do not get the salvation part right, non of the rest matters, The jews loved God, did all those things out of that love, (even Saul, who became paul. Killed Jesus followers because of his love for God) yet when God sent his son, The jews rejected him, Because they did not get the salvation part right.
So how do you explain away this?

Acts 21
17 When we arrived at Jerusalem, the brothers and sisters received us warmly. 18 The next day Paul and the rest of us went to see James, and all the elders were present. 19 Paul greeted them and reported in detail what God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry. 20 When they heard this, they praised God. Then they said to Paul: “You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law.
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
7,427
3,482
113
#7
I heard a story about a Sufi saint, her name was Rabia of Basra. She would walk down the street carrying a container of water in one hand and container of fire in the other. People wondered why?
She said that the water was to put out the flames of hell, and the fire was to burn down heaven!
The point she was trying to make was that she didn't practice her religion to avoid hell or to attain salvation, her motivation was out of love for God, not for what would happen to her. She herself didn't matter. I think she would have willingly gone to hell if that was what God wanted, out of love for God.

In the same way Abraham would have taken his son's life if God wanted him to. That is what James gave as an example of faith. View attachment 194262

This whole debate on salvation is very worthy, but the emphasis seems to be on how to avoid hell and attain heaven. If you have faith you will be ok, but would it be better to emphasise love, devotion and submission?
Well let me speak personally..

I became a christian in my early 20's and i did not become a Christian as a way to avoid the eternal lake of fire or because it was a way to have eternal life in a perfect paradise...

I became a Christian because of the staggering truth and wisdom that i found revealed by God in the scriptures and the awesome and Loving Way God chose to rescue me from the disaster i was headed for..

So Truth, Wisdom and Love moved me to become a Christian.. And incidentally keep me a Christian..

Not the desire for paradise or the fear of punishment..

But i do look forward to being the perfect being i wish i was already when the LORD transforms me on the day of the resurrection..

And i am glad i will not be spending eternity in torment in that eternal Lake of Fire..
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
7,427
3,482
113
#8
So how do you explain away this?

Acts 21
17 When we arrived at Jerusalem, the brothers and sisters received us warmly. 18 The next day Paul and the rest of us went to see James, and all the elders were present. 19 Paul greeted them and reported in detail what God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry. 20 When they heard this, they praised God. Then they said to Paul: “You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law.
Why does one need to explane away ? What is it that you see as a contradiction? Please explain..
 
Apr 15, 2017
2,867
653
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#9
Joh 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
Joh 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

1Co 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

God wants us to have faith, and to know that He is a rewarder to those who diligently seek Him, which we have to believe in a God we cannot see, and a kingdom we cannot see, for if we seen we would only believe because we have seen, but there is evidence that it is true even though we cannot see it, and God will reveal it to those who have the Spirit of God.

Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

1Co 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Charity, love in action, works, is greater than faith, so we have to have works of love or else we have no faith, and cannot please God, for then we are acting fleshy and not spiritual to love people, for love is the fulfilling of the law.

Ti 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness(money, material things): from such withdraw thyself.
1Ti 6:6 But godliness with contentment is great gain.
1Ti 6:7 For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out.
1Ti 6:8 And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.
1Ti 6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

God only blesses us with our needs, and not our wants, and to help the poor and needy if possible.

The love of money is the root of all evil, for is neglects the poor and needy, which is how God created the earth to operate by love, and anybody that goes by their wants falls victim to it.

So we have to have faith, and works of love to have faith, for love is greater than faith, and God wants us to know that He rewards those that follow Him, for He will not leave us empty handed.

Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

1Co 3:18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
1Co 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
1Co 3:20 And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.

Creation testifies that there is a God, and of His attributes, which one of them is love, for He provided food, and the means to make clothing, and shelter, so the world is without excuse, and covers the 2 greatest laws, love God, and love people.

But some people did not want to believe in God in the truth, but in a natural sense, like occultists, and nature worship, or something like evolution that things came about by another means than a God created everything.

But the world has no excuse for it has been shown to them the invisible things of God shown in creation that covers all of mankind's history of the law of love.

So the God we cannot see, and kingdom we cannot see is revealed to all to know, and believe by faith, whether they heard the word of God, or not.

But we surely see that many do not see this love in creation, for they fight like the dickens, and are selfish, and arrogant.

But Jesus said since iniquity shall abound the love of many shall wax cold, and Paul said evil men shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived, for that is the direction the world is going that do not accept the truth, they get worse according to the flesh, which Paul said there is no good thing that dwells in the flesh, and the flesh and Spirit are contrary to each other.

Which will result in a falling away of the world as the nations come together and try to establish peace, and stop the preaching of the Gospel, and the transgressors come to the full, and follow the New Age Christ, then God will end this sin business on earth.

1Co 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.

Php 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

Nobody has an excuse, and we have to have faith, and works of love, and God wants us to know that He rewards those that follow Him, which Paul said keep your focus on the prize.

But love is the most important trait we can have, and people that claim Christ that lack love the Bible says they erred from the faith.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#10
So how do you explain away this?

Acts 21
17 When we arrived at Jerusalem, the brothers and sisters received us warmly. 18 The next day Paul and the rest of us went to see James, and all the elders were present. 19 Paul greeted them and reported in detail what God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry. 20 When they heard this, they praised God. Then they said to Paul: “You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law.
What does that have to do with my post???
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
12,964
8,672
113
#11
I heard a story about a Sufi saint, her name was Rabia of Basra. She would walk down the street carrying a container of water in one hand and container of fire in the other. People wondered why?
She said that the water was to put out the flames of hell, and the fire was to burn down heaven!
The point she was trying to make was that she didn't practice her religion to avoid hell or to attain salvation, her motivation was out of love for God, not for what would happen to her. She herself didn't matter. I think she would have willingly gone to hell if that was what God wanted, out of love for God.

In the same way Abraham would have taken his son's life if God wanted him to. That is what James gave as an example of faith. View attachment 194262

This whole debate on salvation is very worthy, but the emphasis seems to be on how to avoid hell and attain heaven. If you have faith you will be ok, but would it be better to emphasise love, devotion and submission?

It's a shame the point here is a good one, because you tainted it with Islam. Are you a Muslim? Also, what's with the idol profile pic?
 

WalkingTree

Active member
Jan 13, 2019
168
100
43
#12
What does that have to do with my post???
Yet your message is "The Jews rejected him". You're communicating that when...
when God sent his son, The jews rejected him, Because they did not get the salvation part right.
if you can not identify how Acts 21 states otherwise I don't know how to help you. Except to say you probably shouldn't use blanket statements like "the Jews".
 

WalkingTree

Active member
Jan 13, 2019
168
100
43
#13
This whole debate on salvation is very worthy, but the emphasis seems to be on how to avoid hell and attain heaven. If you have faith you will be ok, but would it be better to emphasise love, devotion and submission?
I think heaven and hell have be misconstrued for ages. Many false ideas have been taught causing much confusion. I think you're on the right track, keep your eyes on the prize all else is vanity.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#14
Yet your message is "The Jews rejected him". You're communicating that when...if you can not identify how Acts 21 states otherwise I don't know how to help you. Except to say you probably shouldn't use blanket statements like "the Jews".
The jews had jesus crucified, they chose barrabus over jesus, and the jewish leaders sent him to his death because they did not understand salvation.

acts 21 does not negate that fact.
 

WalkingTree

Active member
Jan 13, 2019
168
100
43
#15
The jews had jesus crucified, they chose barrabus over jesus, and the jewish leaders sent him to his death because they did not understand salvation.

acts 21 does not negate that fact.
Actually, John 10:1-19 does. Specifically verse 18.

You seem to continually throw The Jews under the proverbial bus. Have you anything positive to say about them? Can you lift them up like our God does? Or are we the ever loving example of what NOT to do? You do realize God has a hope and a future for Israel don't you?
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#16
Actually, John 10:1-19 does. Specifically verse 18.

You seem to continually throw The Jews under the proverbial bus. Have you anything positive to say about them? Can you lift them up like our God does? Or are we the ever loving example of what NOT to do? You do realize God has a hope and a future for Israel don't you?
Wow man

When i speak of jews, i speak of them as a nation, as a nation they rejected christ, they rejected their messiah, and they rejected god, thats why 70 ad happened in the first place, (see lev 26)


Paul said they are beloved because of the election, but hated because of the gospel. Go over to isreal, are they worshiping jesus? Are they praising their savior? Or are they still blind to salvation thinking they are saved by law?



I am not speaking of induvidual people.



Instead of assuming you know what people say why do t you ask once in awhile. You will get better responses,
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,240
6,531
113
#17
Does anyone read the Word? Jesus, fulfilling prophesy, was cricified by the Romans because of some Jews. Many Jews belieed Yeshua.

Read more and you will see He was killed by sinners……..that would be all of us.

Now, find out what a Jew truly is and stop using the understanding created by Christians after Christ. I am not going to explain it again. Perhaps you can read the meaning from Paul in Romans…...but will you , having eyes, not see?
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
3,612
2,632
113
#18
This is a Christian forum and this man is not a christian

DONT TAKE SPIRITUAL ADVICE FROM HIM!
 

WalkingTree

Active member
Jan 13, 2019
168
100
43
#19
Wow man

When i speak of jews, i speak of them as a nation, as a nation they rejected christ, they rejected their messiah, and they rejected god, thats why 70 ad happened in the first place, (see lev 26)

Paul said they are beloved because of the election, but hated because of the gospel. Go over to isreal, are they worshiping jesus? Are they praising their savior? Or are they still blind to salvation thinking they are saved by law?



I am not speaking of induvidual people.



Instead of assuming you know what people say why do t you ask once in awhile. You will get better responses,
Nice try at a deflection, not buying it though.

A nation is made up of individuals. Again I ask, can you lift up 'the Jews', as a people or a nation. Because both are ''favored" in the eyes of God. And it's part of Jesus' mission to bring back and restore ALL, which includes the individual people who make up the nation of Israel.

I've stated this here before and I stand by it. The message of Jesus is one of reconciliation, not condemnation. So yes, we can tell his sheep by the message they hold.

Amos 9:11​
Israel Will Be Made Like New Again​
11 "The time will come when I will rebuild David's fallen tent. I will repair its broken places. I will rebuild what was destroyed. I will make it what it used to be. 12 Then my people will take control of those who are left alive in Edom. They will also possess all of the nations that belong to me," announces the Lord. He will do all of those things. 13 "A new day is coming," announces the Lord. "At that time those who plow the land will catch up with those who harvest the crops. Those who stomp on grapes will catch up with those who plant the vines. Fresh wine will drip from the mountains. It will flow down from all of the hills. 14 I will bring my people Israel back home. I will bless them with great success again. They will rebuild the destroyed cities and live in them. They will plant vineyards and drink the wine they produce. They will make gardens and eat their fruit.​
15 I will plant Israel in their own land. They will never again be removed from the land I have given them," says the LORD your God.​

This is when heaven comes down to earth. It's not a completely spiritual thing. To bring it back to the OP, Faith produces Works. The Spiritual is 'connected' to the physical. Just like the Spirit 'dwells' within your physical body. If you believe...

If you remember correctly, this prophesy was mentioned by James in Acts 15, in connection with Gentiles receiving what was given to the Jews. The end has both Jews and Gentiles restored, both reconciled to God through the blood of Jesus.

The tent of David (Israel) is restored that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord. Yeshua is that tent. And we are both to be dwelling equally and securely under it, without any condemnation.

Israel will be restored. God's message and is completely connected with the Word that comes out of Messiah's mouth. The nation's salvation is ours as well.

Will you stand with me for Israel as God stands for her?! Will you not proclaim her restoration as you proudly and boldly as you proclaim your own?
 

WalkingTree

Active member
Jan 13, 2019
168
100
43
#20