Sabath

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M

Meditator

Banned
#21
Dec 22, 2018
59
19
8
#21
I'm not a Christian and so I can perhaps be excused from misunderstanding Paul 😕
But that doesn't excuse you lot, if Paul is also doing follow the law then you should. Even if you slip sometimes... don't slip on purpose and say... Oh but faith, faith! That's just lazy.

The OP is about the Sabbath. My point is that Mosaic law still applies in full to the Sabbath for Christians. It's a commandment from God the Father and the Son.
Not being able to do it perfectly doesn't mean it no longer applies.
It no longer being strictly necessary for salvation doesn't mean you can use the new covenant to contrive ways of disobeying God.
 
mailmandan

mailmandan

Senior Member
#22
Apr 7, 2014
25,572
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#22
Sabbath keeping with all it's rules and regulations, was part of a covenant with Israel (Exodus 16:23, 29; 31:12-18; 35:1-3; Leviticus 19:30; 23:2-3, 32; Numbers 15:32-36; 28:1-10; 29:39-40; I Chronicles. 23:30-31; II Chronicles 31:2-4; Isaiah 1:13; Amos 8:5; Nehemiah 10:31) that is not binding on Christians under the New Covenant.

*Colossians 2:16 - Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.
 
M

Meditator

Banned
#23
Dec 22, 2018
59
19
8
#23
Not binding perhaps, but still desired by God, Jesus said to obey the law.

Or is there a list of laws that God doesn't want you to follow anymore? Did Anyone say, stop following all these rules?
 
mailmandan

mailmandan

Senior Member
#24
Apr 7, 2014
25,572
13,548
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#24
Meditator said:
Not binding perhaps, but still desired by God, Jesus said to obey the law.

Or is there a list of laws that God doesn't want you to follow anymore? Did Anyone say, stop following all these rules?
Click to expand...
The life of discipleship flows out of the new command, to love one another as He loved us. (John 13:34) Love fulfills the law. (Romans 13:8-10) References for the moral aspect of 9 of the 10 commandments are reiterated under the new covenant, yet the command to keep the Sabbath day is not binding on Christians under the new covenant. (Colossians 2:16-17)

1. You shall have no other gods before Me. - Acts 14:15
2. You shall make no idols. - 1 John 5:21
3. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain. - Matthew 5:33-37; 1 Timothy 6:1; James 2:7; James 5:12
4. Keep the Sabbath day holy. - Not binding on the Church - Colossians 2:16-17
5. Honor your father and your mother. - Ephesians 6:1-2
6. You shall not murder. - Romans 13:9-10; 1 John 3:15
7. You shall not commit adultery. - Romans 13:9-10; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10
8. You shall not steal. - Romans 13:9-10; Ephesians 4:28
9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. - Romans 13:9-10; Colossians 3:9-10
10. You shall not covet. - Romans 13:9-10; Ephesians 5:3

2 Corinthians 3:6 - "He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant — not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills...the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone...the ministry that condemns." 7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness!

The law on our heart and mind is the love of the Spirit, not the law of the letter. This is why Paul tells us that the new covenant is a covenant of the Spirit, and not of the letter.
 
M

Meditator

Banned
#25
Dec 22, 2018
59
19
8
#25
Starting to get it, but it does lean heavily on Paul.
How do we know Paul wasn't deluded?
 
M

Meditator

Banned
#27
Dec 22, 2018
59
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#27
A

Adstar

Senior Member
#28
Jul 24, 2016
7,600
3,624
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#28
Meditator said:
Starting to get it, but it does lean heavily on Paul.
How do we know Paul wasn't deluded?
Click to expand...
The Apostle Peter Affirmed Paul and his writings.. Note what Peter said about Paul's writings:

2 Peter 3: KJV
13 "Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. {14} Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. {15} And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; {16} As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction."

So Peter acknowledged that Paul's writings where not simple.. That His epistles are sometimes hard to be understood..
 
M

Meditator

Banned
#29
Dec 22, 2018
59
19
8
#29
Adstar said:
The Apostle Peter Affirmed Paul and his writings.. Note what Peter said about Paul's writings:

2 Peter 3: KJV
13 "Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. {14} Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. {15} And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; {16} As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction."

So Peter acknowledged that Paul's writings where not simple.. That His epistles are sometimes hard to be understood..
Click to expand...
Well, that's true.
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#30
Jul 31, 2013
37,957
13,615
113
#30
Meditator said:
Romans and Hebrews are written by Paul, he does contradict Jesus. Jesus says follow all the laws, James (Jesus' brother right?) said faith is shown by works.
Then this person on a mission to destroy Christianity says he had a revelation and suddenly he did things opposite to Jesus and opposite to people who knew Jesus in the flesh and then that is taken up as the truth.
I'm sorry, I just cant buy into that.
Is this Christianity or 'Paulism', I'm really struggling to make sense of this.
I think Paul has created a beautiful religion, but it clearly does contradict plain straightforward statements by Jesus and people who actually knew him.
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I am sorry I don't have time to speak further with you until later tonite maybe; just please, read Romans.

Peter and the other apostles appove of Paul's gospel and call his writing scripture. Your impression is not uncommon but it is incorrect. You must understand, you are on the outside looking in right now. I mean no offense, but wish to help you understand :)
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#31
Jul 31, 2013
37,957
13,615
113
#31
Meditator said:
Anybody can pretend to be blind, or have a hysterical blindness.
Click to expand...
Acts 9:17-18
Then Ananias went to the house and entered it. Placing his hands on Saul, he said, "Brother Saul, the Lord—Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you were coming here—has sent me so that you may see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit." Immediately, something like scales fell from Saul's eyes, and he could see again. He got up and was baptized


Acts was written by Luke, who was a physician. There was apparently distinct physical evidence, which must have been witnessed by Ananias, who was considered credible. There is further evidence in the epistles that Paul continued to have eye trouble later, too
 
Homewardbound

Homewardbound

Well-known member
#32
Dec 10, 2018
1,078
593
113
#32
mailmandan said:
The life of discipleship flows out of the new command, to love one another as He loved us. (John 13:34) Love fulfills the law. (Romans 13:8-10) References for the moral aspect of 9 of the 10 commandments are reiterated under the new covenant, yet the command to keep the Sabbath day is not binding on Christians under the new covenant. (Colossians 2:16-17)

1. You shall have no other gods before Me. - Acts 14:15
2. You shall make no idols. - 1 John 5:21
3. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain. - Matthew 5:33-37; 1 Timothy 6:1; James 2:7; James 5:12
4. Keep the Sabbath day holy. - Not binding on the Church - Colossians 2:16-17
5. Honor your father and your mother. - Ephesians 6:1-2
6. You shall not murder. - Romans 13:9-10; 1 John 3:15
7. You shall not commit adultery. - Romans 13:9-10; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10
8. You shall not steal. - Romans 13:9-10; Ephesians 4:28
9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. - Romans 13:9-10; Colossians 3:9-10
10. You shall not covet. - Romans 13:9-10; Ephesians 5:3

2 Corinthians 3:6 - "He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant — not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills...the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone...the ministry that condemns." 7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness!

The law on our heart and mind is the love of the Spirit, not the law of the letter. This is why Paul tells us that the new covenant is a covenant of the Spirit, and not of the letter.
Click to expand...
Well put, my brother
 
L

Locoponydirtman

Guest
#33
#33
Meditator said:
Sorry for this simple question, I could Google but I have some other questions too....
* What is the Sabath?
*What day of the week is it and why?
*What are you allowed/not allowed to do on the Sabath?
*How do you follow these rules?
*Why or why not do you follow these rules?
*Thank you.
Click to expand...
*A shadow of Christ to come.
Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day- things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.
Colossians 2:16‭-‬17 NASB
*
One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God. For not one of us lives for himself, and not one dies for himself; for if we live, we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord; therefore whether we live or die, we are the Lord's. For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.
Romans 14:5‭-‬9 NASB
*
All things are lawful for me, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be mastered by anything.
1 Corinthians 6:12‭ NASB
*
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
Romans 10:4 NASB

If you believe scripture.
 
Lanolin

Lanolin

Well-known member
#34
Dec 15, 2018
23,460
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#34
Paul was apostle to the gentiles, the gentiles were actually without the law as they werent given the law written down on stone tablets and the books of law like the israelites were under moses.

So when Paul spread the gospel to the gentiles they were used to doing whatver they wanted as they had no rules from God, BUT God had given everyone a conscience and a heart that convicts them if they do anything wrong. For example if you kill someone, you know its a wrong thing to do because you will feel guilty, you will try to cover it up, your heart will tell you its wrong.

Anyway so what happens when these gentiles start believing in Jesus and they meet jewish believers whove always followed the rules to the lettter theres bound to be a clash. Yet Jesus says theres no difference between them in their hearts. Because thats the law applies, in our hearts. And thats where they are ultimately written down, in our hearts, our new hearts we are given when we believe.
 
Lanolin

Lanolin

Well-known member
#35
Dec 15, 2018
23,460
7,188
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#35
Ok to give you an example regarding sabbath day, before I was born again saved, became a christian I used to work saturdays and sundays cos my work told me I had to, I didnt like to do it but had to follow the rules of my workplace or I would lose that job. They said I had to work 7 days and be flexible to whatever they wanted. This is against God because God only worked for six days and the seventh He rested. And he wants to give us a rest too on the day He rests. So we can enjoy and worship Him together.

Anyway God got hold of me and saved me He also reminded me I had been working on His Sabbaths which I shouldnt be doing so He got me to ask for a sabbatical cos Id been working full time for more than seven years! Well they wouldnt grant me a sabbatical either! I coulndt go to church when everyone else was worshipping, couldnt have a rest, and couldnt do the work God would have me do cos I was bound in slavery to unbelievers!

Well thankfully God had a solution to this and set me free from this slavery all I had to do was ask for time off, leave this job and He would give me a new one where I would be free to honor Him. And now everyday is a day like a sabbath because everyday I am resting in Him and Hes doing His work through me. Amazingly.
 
O

obedienttogod

Guest
#36
#36
Meditator said:
So should the Sabbath still be honoured by Christians?
Click to expand...
Remembered for what the Sabbath meant is always good, just like keeping in mind what the Law and its laws meant in terms of what it represents in a spiritual sense. None of these do I follow, remember, yes I will always remember what they stood for because it's another viewpoint of God.


What I seemed to be hearing from some replies was the only Jesus is perfect so we don't have to be, or even try to be. But Christians should at least try shouldn't they?
Click to expand...
What we read in terms of Yeshua and His Disciples turned Apostles + 1 (Paul)... their example in confrontation legally/spiritually, triumph humanly/spiritually, how they dealt with people in general humanly/spiritually.......SADLY, NONE OF THESE ARE HARDLY BEING DONE TODAY!!

I wished we were 2 generations back and I could take you to what real conduct by/in a church was closer to the biblical example than what they are today.



I know there is a thing in Paul's writings about food, and maybe there is something about circumcision, but other than that people should at the very least be trying to follow all ten commandments right?
Click to expand...
Yeshua expanded on the 10 Commandments. He broke them down so we knew how God viewed the importance and specifics of each Commandment. So "yes," we should obey those Godly (as in from God to us personally) Commandments!!
 
O

obedienttogod

Guest
#37
#37
Meditator said:
Paul seems to contradict Jesus.
Click to expand...



Yeshua spent His discussions about the state of Israel, it's spiritual leaders, and their failure with God. But we learnt a great deal that we now relate to Paul.

Example:
Yeshua claimed several times that His death represented the Mercy of God. The Mercy is significant because it is God telling the JEWS He is being MERCIFUL instead of WRATHFUL .

Paul, knowing what Yeshua meant by MERCY (since Paul was a Jew and a very educated man), he (Paul) knew the act of MERCY to the JEWS was GRACE unto the GENTILES.

In order for there ever to be Grace, you must first have Mercy!!


So, there is no contradictions: Paul's viewpoint is what he knows and see's from the Jews, what he is being taught by Yeshua, and taking this language and showing 2 views. The view of the Jews, and the view of the Gentiles. And we can see he is not changing the words of God, he is applying meaning to the Jews and to the Gentiles. This is why many Jews despised Christ, they saw the Gentiles did not have to deal with accepting/rejecting the Law. They saw the Gentiles now proclaiming to be God's people without the Jewish strongholds. Paul had the ability to relate to people. And he did it most of the time, by breaking Jewish hogwash down into how we should conduct ourselves, be examples of Yeshua, and to properly follow God!!
 
Blik

Blik

Senior Member
#38
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
2,428
113
#38
noblenut said:
the two thing we get as christians from the sabbath law is to honour God and enter God's rest, the regulations of the jewish law was just a shadow of the things that are fulfilled in Jesus, we enter that rest through him(hebrews 4)
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It isn't "what WE get from obedience to God, it is how God created us to act. We are created by Him, the world was created for us to live in, we owe everything to God.

Things that are shadows are not "just" a shadow. They are an outline of something that is real If you see a shadow of a house, for example, you know that house is right there in reality. In the same way shadows of what the Lord has for us tells us of something that is there in detail the shadow doesn't give us.

Jesus did not fulfill our need for a weekly rest of our bodies from our work, a weekly reinforcement of our worship of God. Jesus and God are in perfect union and if we love Jesus we will follow Him. If the Father asks us to do something, Jesus seconds that. There is no difference in what the Father says and what the Son says.

It is you and I who follow the Lord, if we have Jesus within us then we also follow the Lord.
 
Blik

Blik

Senior Member
#39
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
2,428
113
#39
Meditator said:
One of the things I'm picking up from this is that since the crucifixion of Jesus, Christians don't need to follow the rules, they just need to have faith... That is like a new covenant with God. Salvation is about faith not works, and therefore the rules don't apply anymore.
Jesus died for our sin, so sin away to your heart's content, Jesus has got your back!

I know I'm being flippant, but that's what this new covenant stuff sounds like.

What I read in the NT is that Jesus said we are to follow all the law. And James said faith is shown by works, i.e. works are an act of faith and therefore a part of faith.
So faith isn't just a mental act but a physical one too? Maybe?
Click to expand...
Just HOW are you going to manage to thumb your nose at all rules and at the same time have faith in what God says?
 
carl11

carl11

Senior Member
#40
Oct 20, 2017
277
31
28
#40
Meditator said:
Starting to get it, but it does lean heavily on Paul.
How do we know Paul wasn't deluded?
Click to expand...
On the outskirts one could say Paul was deluded but no, because every word that we have in the Bible is from God Almighty, in other words he crafted the Bible like this to make people think that the Bible cant be trusted and apparent contradictions.
 
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