some church fathers on speaking in tongues

I know whom "academic commentaries" are written for. I am asking which one's you consulted?

I just checked A Grammatical Analysis of the Greek New Testament by Maximilian Zerwick, Mary Grosvenor, A Linguistic key the greek new testament by Fritz Rienecker and A Handbook on Paul's First Letter to the Corinthians by Paul Ellingworth and Howard A. Hatton(part of the Bible Societies Translators set) and all of these show that the text is conditional not absolute as you claimed.

Gordon Fee in his Commentary clearly says Paul started off the chapter with "conditional sentences".

1 Corinthians 13 English Standard Version (ESV)

13 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned,[a] but have not love, I gain nothing.

Why would someone "deliver up my body to be burned,"??? that sounds like an exaggeration to me.

Is this the same person? https://www.stpeterscobourg.org/index.php/about/our-clergy/

Of course, but when he was my youth pastor, he had no gray hair and wore glasses.

Cool

So, what do you conclude from all this? It's a guaranteed headache to read it all.

To ad: no 2: it was no female led movement. It startet around 160 ad. And was foundet from Montanus, thats why it is called montanism. Maximilla and Priscilla were Co Workers of Montanus. This Montanus claimed to be the sent comforter (holy Spirit)

Sketch: "So, what do you conclude from all this? It's a guaranteed headache to read it all."

Great question! Because it's hard to give a truly helpful honest answer.
The biggest problem for me is that I can't just recommend a particular Pentecostal or Charismatic church and expect that to transform your life. That's because my decades of spiritual discernment have forced me to reluctantly conclude that most alleged charismatic manifestations are "of the flesh." But I also know that if you experienced an experience of Spirit baptism comparable to mine at age 16, it would be by far the emotional highlight of your life, an experience that you would regularly deliberately recall to draw spiritual strength and nourishment. I might add that 2 of the most Spirit-anointed and effective preachers who ever lived, Charles Finney and Dwight L . Moody, both seem to have experienced a comparable Spirit baptism without the evidence of speaking in tongues and this experience was the key to their effective soul-winning. In my case, the experience dramatically enhanced my intellectual abilities from those of an average student to a student who gained scholarships sufficient to finance my MDiv work a Princeton and my doctoral work at Harvard. And as I was soon to find out, the experience also imparted "the word of knowledge" (e. g. precognitive skills) which have often made my life spell-binding! So at least keep an open mind in pursuit of authentic tongues--or perhaps another path to Spirit baptism--because I'm confident it will change your life in a positive electrifying way! I must confess that I'm so skeptical by nature that if I hadn't had the experience I describe in my Speaking in Tongues thread, I doubt that I'd still be a Christian. I would have rejected the Bible as a collection of legends and culturally biased dogmas. I'm very sobered by that realization--but also grateful for how God has had compassion on my weakness and given me the experiences I've needed to continue my passionate spiritual quest.

Here are some suggestions sincerely offered to help you acheive a spiritual breakthrough:
(1) Make a point of watching each video posted in my Great Historical Revival thread (on the Welsh, Azusa Street, and Hebrides Revivals with more to follow). Doing so will altar your consciousness in a faith-building way by imparting faith in what God has been doing and by increasing the intensity of your spiritual longing--a key to spiritual breakthroughs.
(2) Read the first 2 posts in my Speaking in Tongues thread, especially the 3rd how-to post which outlines a method that may take time, but is guaranteed to gain access to the authentic gift of tongues.
(3) Learn to meditate the Christian way urged by several psalms. To that end, read Quaker Richard Foster's magisterial book, "The Celebration of Discipline," especially his excellent chapters on prayer and meditation. Christianity Today voted this book one of the top 50 books of the 20th century.
(4) Try this experiment: over time, attend a variety of Charismatic churches where the gifts of the Spirit are active and notice how you feel e. g. when you hear interpretations in tongues and ecstatic prophetic words. Act on the assumption that you have the gift of discernment and then notice how confident you become in your verdicts on these manifestations. This practice will help you better discern how the Spirit is moving in your own prayer life.
(5) Only after steps (1)-(4) find a weekly prayer group composed of people who in your discernment really know how to pray with powerful expectant faith. In my retirement I've been a member of a small prayer group for about 4 years and we've seen one miracle after another and many other remarkable answers to prayer. There is no substitute for the weekly act of faith that prompts you to drive to a site specifically for the purpose of prayer, not for fellowship or Bible study, although prayer group members often begin by sharing biblical insights and testimonies.

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Cessationists are generally ignorant of 3 ways that their doctrine is decisively refuted:
(1) by plain NT teaching to the contrary
(2) by the evidence that the gift of tongues continued to be exercise for the first 3 centuries
The case for (1) will be laid out in my thread on speaking in tongues. (2) has been well documented in this thread.

So this post will focus on (3):
(3) Cessationists are decisively refuted by the evidence that, from the 1200s on, Catholic saints were heard to speak in languages unknown to the speakers, but recognized by foreigners in their audience in a manner just as impressive as the outburst of tongues recorded in Acts 2. On this read this enlightening and highly educational article:

www.miraclesofthesaints.com/2010/10/speaking-in-tongues-supernatural-gift.html

There is a logistics barrier to our understanding of the miraculous speaking in recognizable human languages on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2): with 120 ecstatic believers crowded in "the upper room" simultaneously speaking in tongues, how could the thousands of listeners outside distinguish their own languages from the cacophony of sound? The answer may be found in ,many Catholic accounts of speaking in foreign languages from the 1200s on. In those cases, the ecstatic speaks in his own tongue, but the crowd of foreigners miraculously hears the message in their own languages. That sort of phenomenon may well have occurred on the Day of Pentecost long ago.

Acts 2 New Revised Standard Version, Anglicised Catholic Edition (NRSVACE)


2 When the day of Pentecost had come, they were all together in one place. 2 And suddenly from heaven there came a sound like the rush of a violent wind, and it filled the entire house where they were sitting. 3 Divided tongues, as of fire, appeared among them, and a tongue rested on each of them. 4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other languages, as the Spirit gave them ability.

5 Now there were devout Jews from every nation under heaven living in Jerusalem. 6 And at this sound the crowd gathered and was bewildered, because each one heard them speaking in the native language of each. 7 Amazed and astonished, they asked, ‘Are not all these who are speaking Galileans? 8 And how is it that we hear, each of us, in our own native language? 9 Parthians, Medes, Elamites, and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya belonging to Cyrene, and visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, 11 Cretans and Arabs—in our own languages we hear them speaking about God’s deeds of power.’ 12 All were amazed and perplexed, saying to one another, ‘What does this mean?’ 13 But others sneered and said, ‘They are filled with new wine.’

The text does not say there were 120 Christians, likely just the Apostles only.
The text does not say they all spoke at the same time.
Likely they followed the custom of Temple of speaking one by one which is even the procedure to this day.
The text says they were all in one place which was likely outside on the roof of the house with people down below.
To know that they were Galileans, the crowd would have to see them siting or standing on the roof.
If they were inside, the windows did not have glass.

Luke 4:16-20 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)

16 Jesus traveled to Nazareth, the town where he grew up. On the Sabbath day he went to the synagogue as he always did. He stood up to read. 17 The book of Isaiah the prophet was given to him. He opened the book and found the place where this is written:

18 “The Spirit of the Lord is on me.
He has chosen me to tell good news to the poor.
He sent me to tell prisoners that they are free
and to tell the blind that they can see again.
He sent me to free those who have been treated badly
19 and to announce that the time has come for the Lord to show his kindness.”

20 Jesus closed the book, gave it back to the helper, and sat down. As everyone in the synagogue watched him closely,

Learner: "The text does not say there were 120 Christians, likely just the Apostles only."
No, the Book of Acts numbers the believers at 120 (1:15) and "they were all together in one place" for the Spirit's outpouring at Pentecost (2:1). If Luke meant that only the 12 were present, he would have said so, as is his normal practice.

Learner: "The text does not say they all spoke at the same time.Likely they followed the custom of Temple of speaking one by one which is even the procedure to this day."
Absurd! First, the Spirit exploded inside of them, causing them to erupt in uncontrolled ecstatic speech.
Second, a simultaneous cacophony of sound is implied by the impression on outsiders that they must all be drunk (2:13-16).

Learner: "The text says they were all in one place which was likely outside on the roof of the house with people down below."
No, Acts says, "the violent wind [of the Spirit]...filled the entire house where they were sitting (2:2)." The Spirit wouldn't fill space empty of believers; so they must have been inside, and not on the roof.

Learner: "To know that they were Galileans, the crowd would have to see them siting or standing on the roof."
No, Galileans were distinguished not by their dress, but by their Aramaic dialect.

Learner: "The text does not say there were 120 Christians, likely just the Apostles only."
No, the Book of Acts numbers the believers at 120 (1:15) and "they were all together in one place" for the Spirit's outpouring at Pentecost (2:1). If Luke meant that only the 12 were present, he would have said so, as is his normal practice.

From Acts 1, you are reading the 120 into Acts 2. A house back then for the average or lower class did not come even close to holding 120 people. The 120 were at at meeting in Acts 1. Acts 2 does not state whom beyond the apostles was there at the house. Your big problem is the size of he house. The Apostles and some of the women stayed at the house.
The meeting in Acts 1 is a separate event.

12 Then the apostles went back to Jerusalem from the Mount of Olives. This mountain is about a half mile from Jerusalem. 13 When they entered the city, they went to the upstairs room where they were staying. These are the ones who were there: Peter, John, James, Andrew, Philip, Thomas, Bartholomew, Matthew, James (the son of Alphaeus), Simon, the Zealot, and Judas (the son of James).

14 The apostles were all together. They were constantly praying with the same purpose. Some women, Mary the mother of Jesus, and his brothers were there with the apostles.

15 After a few days there was a meeting of the believers. There were about 120 of them. Peter stood up and said, 16-17 “Brothers and sisters, in the Scriptures the Holy Spirit said through David that something must happen. He was talking about Judas, one of our own group. Judas served together with us. The Spirit said that Judas would lead men to arrest Jesus.”

Acts 2
12 The people were all amazed and confused. They asked each other, “What is happening?” 13 But others were laughing at the apostles, saying they were drunk from too much wine.

14 Then Peter stood up with the other eleven apostles. He spoke loudly so that all the people could hear. He said, “My Jewish brothers and all of you who live in Jerusalem, listen to me. I will tell you something you need to know. Listen carefully. 15 These men are not drunk as you think; it’s only nine o’clock in the morning.

The false drunk comment backs up my claim that only the Apostles were at the house at the time.

Learner: "The text does not say they all spoke at the same time.Likely they followed the custom of Temple of speaking one by one which is even the procedure to this day."

Absurd! First, the Spirit exploded inside of them, causing them to erupt in uncontrolled ecstatic speech.
Second, a simultaneous cacophony of sound is implied by the impression on outsiders that they must all be drunk (2:13-16).

Not absurd, the part I highlighted shows it was controlled. Otherwise, a crowd would not be attracted to it at all.
Also, I am following the example of Jesus himself which I posted. Paul wrote that tongues and prophecy must be done in an orderly manner, one prophet speaking at a time. God is not a being of confusion which you are claiming here.

Learner: "The text says they were all in one place which was likely outside on the roof of the house with people down below."
No, Acts says, "the violent wind [of the Spirit]...filled the entire house where they were sitting (2:2)." The Spirit wouldn't fill space empty of believers; so they must have been inside, and not on the roof.

Ah, the roof was part of the house. The roofs were flat and people often slept up there because it was cooler.

Learner: "To know that they were Galileans, the crowd would have to see them siting or standing on the roof."
No, Galileans were distinguished not by their dress, but by their Aramaic dialect.

https://askdrbrown.org/library/what-language-did-jesus-and-apostles-speak

Pilate had a notice prepared and fastened to the cross. It read: JESUS OF NAZARETH, THE KING OF THE JEWS. Many of the Jews read this sign, for the place where Jesus was crucified was near the city, and the sign was written in Aramaic, Latin and Greek (John 19:19,20).

1 Corinthians 14:40 ESV
But all things should be done decently and in order.

http://religiousaffections.org/arti...e-holy-spirit-and-decent-and-orderly-worship/

Learner: "The text does not say there were 120 Christians, likely just the Apostles only."
No, the Book of Acts numbers the believers at 120 (1:15) and "they were all together in one place" for the Spirit's outpouring at Pentecost (2:1). If Luke meant that only the 12 were present, he would have said so, as is his normal practice.

Learner: "From Acts 1, you are reading the 120 into Acts 2. A house back then for the average or lower class did not come even close to holding 120 people."
Who said anything about a lower class house? Have you been to the Upper Room in Jerusalem? Well, I have. 2:2 implies that they were in a house through which the wind of the Spirit swept. To those outside the speaking in tongues seemed like a confused massive drunken orgy. Spectators were converted by Peter's sermon, not by this orgy. But they were open to what Peter had to say because, among the babble, they detected words of their own language.

Learner: "Ah, the roof was part of the house. The roofs were flat and people often slept up there because it was cooler."
No, Acts says, "the violent wind [of the Spirit]...filled the entire house where they were sitting (2:2)." The Spirit wouldn't fill space empty of believers; so they must have been inside, and not on the roof.

Learner: "To know that they were Galileans, the crowd would have to see them siting or standing on the roof."
No, Galileans were distinguished not by their dress, but by their Aramaic dialect.

https://askdrbrown.org/library/what-language-did-jesus-and-apostles-speak

Pilate had a notice prepared and fastened to the cross. It read: JESUS OF NAZARETH, THE KING OF THE JEWS. Many of the Jews read this sign, for the place where Jesus was crucified was near the city, and the sign was written in Aramaic, Latin and Greek (John 19:19,20).

1 Corinthians 14:40 ESV
But all things should be done decently and in order.

http://religiousaffections.org/arti...e-holy-spirit-and-decent-and-orderly-worship/[/QUOTE]

When I was younger, I I was involved with some digs over there. The largest house there was 12' x 10' courtyard if they had one was 10' x 6' And, based on the building materials, it would not hold 120 people. Not even my fishing dock today would do that.

Will you define private interpretation? How could it be used and applied to tongues?

Thank you Garee for asking a question I understand. Private Interpretation from the context means that Scripture did not originate with humans. Let's look at the text.

Now that we looked at the Scripture Translations below, true prophecy is Scripture given by the Holy Spirit.

Some teach that Prophecy in the NT is full of errors and therefore not inspired by God.
https://www.tms.edu/m/tmsj2h.pdf The NT makes no such human error prone definition of prophecy.

Which raises the question, why are not "modern prophets" added to the Scriptures? Even Cults like Mormonism and Christian Science added their false prophets to the Scriptures in separate books.

2 Peter 1 Good News Translation (GNT)
1 From Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ—

To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have been given a faith as precious as ours:

2 May grace and peace be yours in full measure through your knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord.

God's Call and Choice
3 God's divine power has given us everything we need to live a truly religious life through our knowledge of the one who called us to share in his own[a]glory and goodness. 4 In this way he has given us the very great and precious gifts he promised, so that by means of these gifts you may escape from the destructive lust that is in the world, and may come to share the divine nature. 5 For this very reason do your best to add goodness to your faith; to your goodness add knowledge; 6 to your knowledge add self-control; to your self-control add endurance; to your endurance add godliness; 7 to your godliness add Christian affection; and to your Christian affection add love. 8 These are the qualities you need, and if you have them in abundance, they will make you active and effective in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But if you do not have them, you are so shortsighted that you cannot see and have forgotten that you have been purified from your past sins.

10 So then, my friends, try even harder to make God's call and his choice of you a permanent experience; if you do so, you will never abandon your faith.[b] 11 In this way you will be given the full right to enter the eternal Kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

12 And so I will always remind you of these matters, even though you already know them and are firmly grounded in the truth you have received. 13 I think it only right for me to stir up your memory of these matters as long as I am still alive. 14 I know that I shall soon put off this mortal body, as our Lord Jesus Christ plainly told me. 15 I will do my best, then, to provide a way for you to remember these matters at all times after my death.

Eyewitnesses of Christ's Glory
16 We have not depended on made-up stories in making known to you the mighty coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. With our own eyes we saw his greatness. 17 We were there when he was given honor and glory by God the Father, when the voice came to him from the Supreme Glory, saying, “This is my own dear Son, with whom I am pleased!” 18 We ourselves heard this voice coming from heaven, when we were with him on the holy mountain.

19 So we are even more confident of the message proclaimed by the prophets. You will do well to pay attention to it, because it is like a lamp shining in a dark place until the Day dawns and the light of the morning star shines in your hearts. 20 Above all else, however, remember that none of us can explain by ourselves a prophecy in the Scriptures. 21 For no prophetic message ever came just from the human will, but people were under the control of the Holy Spirit as they spoke the message that came from God.

16 For we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty.[f] 17 For when he received honor and glory from God the Father and the voice was borne to him by the Majestic Glory, “This is my beloved Son,[g] with whom I am well pleased,” 18 we heard this voice borne from heaven, for we were with him on the holy mountain. 19 And we have the prophetic word made more sure. You will do well to pay attention to this as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. 20 First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, 21 because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

2 Peter 1:16-21 J.B. Phillips New Testament (PHILLIPS)
16-17 We were not following a cleverly written-up story when we told you about the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ—we actually saw his majesty with our own eyes. He received honour and glory from God the Father himself when that voice said to him, out of the sublime glory of Heaven, ‘This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased’.

18-19 We actually heard that voice speaking from Heaven while we were with him on the sacred mountain. The word of prophecy was fulfilled in our hearing! You should give that word your closest attention, for it shines like a lamp amidst all the dirt and darkness of the world, until the day dawns, and the morning star rises in your hearts.

False prophets will flourish, but only for a time
20-21 But you must understand this at the outset, that no prophecy of scripture arose from an individual’s interpretation of the truth. No prophecy came because a man wanted it to: men of God spoke because they were inspired by the Holy Spirit.

jj
2 Peter 1:16-21 The Message (MSG)
16-18 We weren’t, you know, just wishing on a star when we laid the facts out before you regarding the powerful return of our Master, Jesus Christ. We were there for the preview! We saw it with our own eyes: Jesus resplendent with light from God the Father as the voice of Majestic Glory spoke: “This is my Son, marked by my love, focus of all my delight.” We were there on the holy mountain with him. We heard the voice out of heaven with our very own ears.

19-21 We couldn’t be more sure of what we saw and heard—God’s glory, God’s voice. The prophetic Word was confirmed to us. You’ll do well to keep focusing on it. It’s the one light you have in a dark time as you wait for daybreak and the rising of the Morning Star in your hearts. The main thing to keep in mind here is that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of private opinion. And why? Because it’s not something concocted in the human heart. Prophecy resulted when the Holy Spirit prompted men and women to speak God’s Word