some church fathers on speaking in tongues

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TheLearner

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#21
The reason many of the posts are long is, when the Church Fathers or any other primary source is quoted without giving proper references to the book, page numbers. And, I see ... in a paragraph or the grammar seems like an incomplete sentence. or something appears inconsistent with what I know about the primary source --- I am going to check the context.

The only open questions I have at this time is to produce from primary sources with enough of a quote for context and link to where the primary source quote came from.
 

tourist

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#22
The source that gives the quotes out of context and maybe made two up is https://www.cai.org/bible-studies/evidence-speaking-tongues-early-church

One being the quote that Augustine allegedly made and the other being a Secondary Source Book from 1891 or there bouts.

I gave you a pdf file link to the book and a link to new advent dot org. Maybe you can find the quote and put it in context.
Find what quote exactly? I'm sorry but I didn't read that extensive series of posts. I prefer to read what a member has to say rather than an entire blog written by an unknown author. I was just wondering if you cut n paste the whole book in your posts. I wouldn't mind a short excerpt on any given topic of discussion but will not read wall after wall of text regardless of the topic. Can you provide a 25 words or less summary on the view of some church fathers regarding speaking in tongues?
 

KelbyofGod

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#23
Can you provide a 25 words or less summary on the view of some church fathers regarding speaking in tongues?
Tourist,

I also just browsed, and my summary is over 25 words :)

It seems to me that some emphatically believed it to be in operation, providing examples..., and some emphatically stated it is no longer in operation and gave justifications for their view. Much like today. The main difference I see is that in these writings the example-givers were more vibrant in their descriptions. From my perspective it seemed they were less expectant of harsh criticism.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby
 

tourist

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#24
Tourist,

I also just browsed, and my summary is over 25 words :)

It seems to me that some emphatically believed it to be in operation, providing examples..., and some emphatically stated it is no longer in operation and gave justifications for their view. Much like today. The main difference I see is that in these writings the example-givers were more vibrant in their descriptions. From my perspective it seemed they were less expectant of harsh criticism.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby
You provided a succinct concise summary. All I do know is that speaking in tongues is just one of the many gifts that the Holy Spirit gives to those that are chosen for that particular gift It does not say in the bible that this gift is better than any other gift. Paul mentioned that without an interpreter speaking in tongues is like a clanging cymbal. Regardless of whether one has tongues or not this is not indicative or necessary for salvation. Personally, if I had the choice of what gift to receive from the Holy Spirit the speaking of tongues what not even come to mind.
 

KelbyofGod

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#25
You provided a succinct concise summary. All I do know is that speaking in tongues is just one of the many gifts that the Holy Spirit gives to those that are chosen for that particular gift It does not say in the bible that this gift is better than any other gift. Paul mentioned that without an interpreter speaking in tongues is like a clanging cymbal. Regardless of whether one has tongues or not this is not indicative or necessary for salvation. Personally, if I had the choice of what gift to receive from the Holy Spirit the speaking of tongues what not even come to mind.
Tourist,

Thanks. The idea of "I wouldn't have chosen tongues" is part of why I started the "Who knew?" thread. I have 'speaking in tongues' but as I read and re-read what Jesus said about the comforter, I'm fairly certain i would NOT have expected tongues to be part of the outpouring. (Yes, I realize that may have seemed like a shameless exploitation to plug an idea and/or thread, but that's not why I said it.)

From a human perspective tongues seems strange. (I would use "weird" but that seems too disrespectful). Do you realize how odd it is to be able to speak for minutes at a time using syllables that are only known to the speaker as they come out of the mouth (or just before that moment)? When I first learned to yield enough to let that happen fluently, I used to talk in tongues for hours just to hear the sounds that were coming out.

Tongues has a biblically stated purpose (which, except in specific circumstances, is NOT for speaking to other people). But it is in light of "how poorly tongues conveys information to other people" that tongues is often criticized. It reminds me of a quote attributed to Einstein...."Everyone is a genius, but if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing it is stupid".

Please forgive my un-requested rant. It, too, was over 25 words. lol

Love in Jesus,
Kelby
 

tourist

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#26
Tourist,

Thanks. The idea of "I wouldn't have chosen tongues" is part of why I started the "Who knew?" thread. I have 'speaking in tongues' but as I read and re-read what Jesus said about the comforter, I'm fairly certain i would NOT have expected tongues to be part of the outpouring. (Yes, I realize that may have seemed like a shameless exploitation to plug an idea and/or thread, but that's not why I said it.)

From a human perspective tongues seems strange. (I would use "weird" but that seems too disrespectful). Do you realize how odd it is to be able to speak for minutes at a time using syllables that are only known to the speaker as they come out of the mouth (or just before that moment)? When I first learned to yield enough to let that happen fluently, I used to talk in tongues for hours just to hear the sounds that were coming out.

Tongues has a biblically stated purpose (which, except in specific circumstances, is NOT for speaking to other people). But it is in light of "how poorly tongues conveys information to other people" that tongues is often criticized. It reminds me of a quote attributed to Einstein...."Everyone is a genius, but if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing it is stupid".

Please forgive my un-requested rant. It, too, was over 25 words. lol

Love in Jesus,
Kelby
I enjoyed reading your un-requested rant very much. I actually learned something also. Your post was well-spoken and you wrote it very well. :)
 

TheLearner

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#27
Find what quote exactly? I'm sorry but I didn't read that extensive series of posts. I prefer to read what a member has to say rather than an entire blog written by an unknown author. I was just wondering if you cut n paste the whole book in your posts. I wouldn't mind a short excerpt on any given topic of discussion but will not read wall after wall of text regardless of the topic. Can you provide a 25 words or less summary on the view of some church fathers regarding speaking in tongues?
"The early martyrs enjoyed these gifts. Dean Ferrar, in his book "Darkness to Dawn" states: "Even for the minutest allusions and particulars I have contemporary authority." He refers to the persecuted Christians in Rome singing and speaking in unknown tongues. "

This book does not document the "Christians in Rome singing and speaking in unknown tongues"

I don't remember the other quote, you need to go back in thread to read it for yourslerl.

I think it was,

"Augustine, Bishop of Hippo, one of the four great fathers of the Latin Church and considered the greatest of them all: "We still do what the apostles did when they laid hands on the Samaritans and called down the Holy Spirit on them in the laying-on of hands. It is expected that converts should speak with new tongues." "


http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/
 
Mar 28, 2016
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#28
From a Pentecostal Author,

We are now ready for a brief survey of church history (from the Apostolic Fathers to Augustine). The representative examples cited will demonstrate that the miraculous gifts of the Spirit were, and are, still very much in operation. Indeed, before Chrysostom in the east (347-407 a.d.) and Augustine in the west (354-430 a.d.) no church father ever suggested that any or all of the charismata had ceased in the first century. And even Augustine later retracted his earlier cessationism (see below). So let’s conduct a quick overview. [For helpful documentation, see Stanley M. Burgess, The Spirit & the Church: Antiquity (Peabody: Hendrickson Publishers, 1984).]

https://www.samstorms.com/enjoying-god-blog/post/spiritual-gifts-in-church-history--2-
A person would first have to believe in the idea of sign gifts?

Where did the idea of charismata as sign gifts come from and what do they as seen with the eye confirm?
 

TheLearner

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#29
A person would first have to believe in the idea of sign gifts?

Where did the idea of charismata as sign gifts come from and what do they as seen with the eye confirm?
Counterfeit Miracles, is by cessationist B. B. Warfield claims it was during time of early church fathers. I have not had the time to check his quotes.

For someone who has the time, these are the Unverified quotes.

"
For this answer I'm leaning on two books for sources. The first, Charismatic Gifts in the Early Church, is written by a continuationist, Ronald A. N. Kydd. The second, Counterfeit Miracles, is by cessationist B. B. Warfield. They actually agree that spiritual gifts came to an end during the early church period, though they disagree on precisely when – Kydd suggests the middle of the third century, while Warfield argues for the first century.

We'll look at two categories of evidence – early church figures who indicate signs of a decline in supernatural gifts, followed by those who say that they have ended.

Decline
Kydd identifies two third-century figures who indicate that the use of spiritual gifts, once common and accepted, had begun to decline. The first is Cyprian, who relates objections to dreams and visions in his Epistle to Florentius Pupianus (no. 68, dated to about AD 254):

For I remember what has already been manifested to me, nay, what has been prescribed by the authority of our Lord and God to an obedient and fearing servant; and among other things which He condescended to show and to reveal, He also added this: “Whoso therefore does not believe Christ, who maketh the priest, shall hereafter begin to believe Him who avengeth the priest.” Although I know that to some men dreams seem ridiculous and visions foolish, yet assuredly it is to such as would rather believe in opposition to the priest, than believe the priest. (§10, emphasis added)​
The second writer is more explicit. In several places in Against Celsus (AD 248), Origen refers to "traces" of workings of the Holy Spirit:

And there are still preserved among Christians traces of that Holy Spirit which appeared in the form of a dove. They expel evil spirits, and perform many cures, and foresee certain events, according to the will of the Logos. (1.46)
For they have no longer prophets nor miracles, traces of which to a considerable extent are still found among Christians, and some of them more remarkable than any that existed among the Jews; and these we ourselves have witnessed, if our testimony may be received. (2.8)
Moreover, the Holy Spirit gave signs of His presence at the beginning of Christ’s ministry, and after His ascension He gave still more; but since that time these signs have diminished, although there are still traces of His presence in a few who have had their souls purified by the Gospel, and their actions regulated by its influence. (7.8)​
Thus we see that both of these authors believed that visible supernatural workings of the Spirit were still occurring in their day, but they indicate that a decline had taken place.

End
B. B. Warfield cites several authors who speak of an end to supernatural gifts, two of which are Augustine (354–430) and Chrysostom (349–407). In On the Profit of Believing, Augustine lists a variety of miracles done by Jesus, and says:

Why, say you, do not those things take place now? because they would not move, unless they were wonderful, and, if they were usual, they would not be wonderful. [...] They were done at a very suitable time, in order that, by these a multitude of believers having been gathered together and spread abroad, authority might be turned with effect upon habits. (§34)​
Similarly, in On True Religion, 25.47:

When the Catholic Church had been founded and diffused throughout the whole world, on the one hand miracles were not allowed to continue till our time, lest the mind should always seek visible things, and the human race should grow cold by becoming accustomed to things which when they were novelties kindled its faith. (Augustine: Earlier Writings, Library of Christian Classics, 248)​
In his Retractions, written significantly later in life, Augustine qualifies these statements, though he still says that some gifts have disappeared, specifically mentioning tongues and some healings:

For not even now, when a hand is laid on the baptized, do they receive the Holy Spirit in such a way that they speak with the tongues of all nations; nor are the sick now healed by the passing shadow of the preachers of Christ. Even though such things happened at that time, manifestly these ceased later. (1.12.7)​
Warfield identifies numerous places that Chrysostom refers to the ceasing of miracles. For example:

Why, saith one, are there not now those who raise the dead, and perform cures? Yes, then, why, I say: why are there not now those who have a contempt for this present life? Do we serve God for hire? When man’s nature was weaker, when the Faith had to be planted, there were even many such; but now he would not have us to hang upon these signs, but to be ready for death. [...] For this cause it is that there are none such now; because that (future) life hath seemed to us honorless, seeing that for its sake we do nothing, whilst for this there is nothing we refuse to undergo. (Homily 8 on Colossians)
Even now there are some that seek them and say, Why do not miracles take place also at this present time? If you are faithful, as you ought to be, and lovest Christ as you ought to love Him, you have no need of signs, they are given to the unbelievers. (Homily 25 on John)​
But, as mentioned in the beginning, we have to be careful not to conclude too much. Warfield writes:

Chrysostom fairly teems with expressions implying that miracle-working of every kind had ceased [...] and yet he records instances from his day! (47)​
Conclusion
We see here several prominent examples of early church writers who indicate both a decline and end to visible workings of the Holy Spirit, such as prophecy, healings, and tongues. But we must be cautious so as not to conclude too much on this evidence alone. Warfield writes of the challenges involved:

It is a very disturbing fact further that the very Fathers who record long lists of miracles contemporary with themselves, yet betray a consciousness that miracles had nevertheless, in some sense or other, ceased with the Apostolic age. (46)​
On the other hand, Ronald Kydd is comfortable marking an end of the period of charismatic gifts, based on this and other evidence. He writes:

[In the first half of the third century] it is clear that the importance granted to spiritual gifts was passing. [...] There came a point around AD 260 at which they no longer fitted in the highly organized, well-educated, wealthy, socially-powerful Christian communities. (87)​
"https://christianity.stackexchange....d-the-event-of-the-ceasing-of-spiritual-gifts

The other book that speaks to this is
On the Cessation of the Charismata: The Protestant Polemic on Post-biblical Miracles--Revised & Expanded Edition Paperback – February 22, 2011
by Jon Mark Ruthven (Author)
 
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
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#31
Counterfeit Miracles, is by cessationist B. B. Warfield claims it was during time of early church fathers. I have not had the time to check his quotes.

For someone who has the time, these are the Unverified quotes.

"
For this answer I'm leaning on two books for sources. The first, Charismatic Gifts in the Early Church, is written by a continuationist, Ronald A. N. Kydd. The second, Counterfeit Miracles, is by cessationist B. B. Warfield. They actually agree that spiritual gifts came to an end during the early church period, though they disagree on precisely when – Kydd suggests the middle of the third century, while Warfield argues for the first century.

We'll look at two categories of evidence – early church figures who indicate signs of a decline in supernatural gifts, followed by those who say that they have ended.

Decline
Kydd identifies two third-century figures who indicate that the use of spiritual gifts, once common and accepted, had begun to decline. The first is Cyprian, who relates objections to dreams and visions in his Epistle to Florentius Pupianus (no. 68, dated to about AD 254):

For I remember what has already been manifested to me, nay, what has been prescribed by the authority of our Lord and God to an obedient and fearing servant; and among other things which He condescended to show and to reveal, He also added this: “Whoso therefore does not believe Christ, who maketh the priest, shall hereafter begin to believe Him who avengeth the priest.” Although I know that to some men dreams seem ridiculous and visions foolish, yet assuredly it is to such as would rather believe in opposition to the priest, than believe the priest. (§10, emphasis added)​
The second writer is more explicit. In several places in Against Celsus (AD 248), Origen refers to "traces" of workings of the Holy Spirit:

And there are still preserved among Christians traces of that Holy Spirit which appeared in the form of a dove. They expel evil spirits, and perform many cures, and foresee certain events, according to the will of the Logos. (1.46)​
For they have no longer prophets nor miracles, traces of which to a considerable extent are still found among Christians, and some of them more remarkable than any that existed among the Jews; and these we ourselves have witnessed, if our testimony may be received. (2.8)​
Moreover, the Holy Spirit gave signs of His presence at the beginning of Christ’s ministry, and after His ascension He gave still more; but since that time these signs have diminished, although there are still traces of His presence in a few who have had their souls purified by the Gospel, and their actions regulated by its influence. (7.8)​
Thus we see that both of these authors believed that visible supernatural workings of the Spirit were still occurring in their day, but they indicate that a decline had taken place.

End
B. B. Warfield cites several authors who speak of an end to supernatural gifts, two of which are Augustine (354–430) and Chrysostom (349–407). In On the Profit of Believing, Augustine lists a variety of miracles done by Jesus, and says:

Why, say you, do not those things take place now? because they would not move, unless they were wonderful, and, if they were usual, they would not be wonderful. [...] They were done at a very suitable time, in order that, by these a multitude of believers having been gathered together and spread abroad, authority might be turned with effect upon habits. (§34)​
Similarly, in On True Religion, 25.47:

When the Catholic Church had been founded and diffused throughout the whole world, on the one hand miracles were not allowed to continue till our time, lest the mind should always seek visible things, and the human race should grow cold by becoming accustomed to things which when they were novelties kindled its faith. (Augustine: Earlier Writings, Library of Christian Classics, 248)​
In his Retractions, written significantly later in life, Augustine qualifies these statements, though he still says that some gifts have disappeared, specifically mentioning tongues and some healings:

For not even now, when a hand is laid on the baptized, do they receive the Holy Spirit in such a way that they speak with the tongues of all nations; nor are the sick now healed by the passing shadow of the preachers of Christ. Even though such things happened at that time, manifestly these ceased later. (1.12.7)​
Warfield identifies numerous places that Chrysostom refers to the ceasing of miracles. For example:

Why, saith one, are there not now those who raise the dead, and perform cures? Yes, then, why, I say: why are there not now those who have a contempt for this present life? Do we serve God for hire? When man’s nature was weaker, when the Faith had to be planted, there were even many such; but now he would not have us to hang upon these signs, but to be ready for death. [...] For this cause it is that there are none such now; because that (future) life hath seemed to us honorless, seeing that for its sake we do nothing, whilst for this there is nothing we refuse to undergo. (Homily 8 on Colossians)​
Even now there are some that seek them and say, Why do not miracles take place also at this present time? If you are faithful, as you ought to be, and lovest Christ as you ought to love Him, you have no need of signs, they are given to the unbelievers. (Homily 25 on John)​
But, as mentioned in the beginning, we have to be careful not to conclude too much. Warfield writes:

Chrysostom fairly teems with expressions implying that miracle-working of every kind had ceased [...] and yet he records instances from his day! (47)​
Conclusion
We see here several prominent examples of early church writers who indicate both a decline and end to visible workings of the Holy Spirit, such as prophecy, healings, and tongues. But we must be cautious so as not to conclude too much on this evidence alone. Warfield writes of the challenges involved:

It is a very disturbing fact further that the very Fathers who record long lists of miracles contemporary with themselves, yet betray a consciousness that miracles had nevertheless, in some sense or other, ceased with the Apostolic age. (46)​
On the other hand, Ronald Kydd is comfortable marking an end of the period of charismatic gifts, based on this and other evidence. He writes:

[In the first half of the third century] it is clear that the importance granted to spiritual gifts was passing. [...] There came a point around AD 260 at which they no longer fitted in the highly organized, well-educated, wealthy, socially-powerful Christian communities. (87)​
"https://christianity.stackexchange....d-the-event-of-the-ceasing-of-spiritual-gifts

The other book that speaks to this is
On the Cessation of the Charismata: The Protestant Polemic on Post-biblical Miracles--Revised & Expanded Edition Paperback – February 22, 2011
by Jon Mark Ruthven (Author)
Interesting stuff .But it does not answer my question. Where did the idea of signs what the eyes see as gifts come from and what do they confirm?

I do not see signs and gift working together as one blessing . Sign as a curse to confirm unbelief (no faith) yes. Gift no! .Hearing the word of God prophecy and believing in God not seen is the gift that God works in us till the end of time if he began the good work he will finish .He is our living confidence in that way (Philippians 1:6)
 

TheLearner

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#32
Interesting stuff .But it does not answer my question. Where did the idea of signs what the eyes see as gifts come from and what do they confirm?

I do not see signs and gift working together as one blessing . Sign as a curse to confirm unbelief (no faith) yes. Gift no! .Hearing the word of God prophecy and believing in God not seen is the gift that God works in us till the end of time if he began the good work he will finish .He is our living confidence in that way (Philippians 1:6)

I do not understand your question. Please break it down to more specific ones, thanks.
 

MadHermit

Junior Member
May 8, 2018
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#33
The Learner: "For this answer I'm leaning on two books for sources. The first, Charismatic Gifts in the Early Church, is written by a continuationist, Ronald A. N. Kydd. The second, Counterfeit Miracles, is by cessationist B. B. Warfield. They actually agree that spiritual gifts came to an end during the early church period, though they disagree on precisely when – Kydd suggests the middle of the third century..."

Ron Kydd was my youth pastor! A survey of the Church Father's views on speaking in tongues (= glossolalia) is a commendable project, but keep these 2 facts in mind:
(1) As academic commentaries on 1 Corinthians recognize, Paul teaches that glossolalia can be both human and angelic speech (1 Corinthians 13:1). Indeed, the Corinthian obsession with angelic glossolalia prompts Paul to label them "zealots of spirits" (Greek: zelotai ton pneumaton"), which is normally mistranslated as "zealous for spiritual gifts." If that was what Paul meant, we would expect "zelotai pneumatikon." "Spirits" ("pneumata") is of course a standard term for "angels (see e. g. Hebrews 1:8)."

(2) The quotes from Tertullian reflect his pre-charismatic phase. But he later converts to the New Prophecy, a movement led by 3 women--Priscilla, Maximilla, and Quintilla. When these women were excommunicated by the Catholic bishop for assuming a leadership role in the church, they retaliated by excommunicating the bishop and appointing women as bishops throughout the Mediterranean world. Tertullian was converted to this female-led Christian movement.
(3) Irenaeus primarily focuses on the Pentecost outpouring in Acts 2 and it is unclear whether he rules out angelic speech as a valid form of glossolalia.
 
Mar 28, 2016
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#34
I do not understand your question. Please break it down to more specific ones, thanks.
I am challenging the idea of outward sign gifts as charismatic gifts all together. We walk by faith . I would call it spiritual gifts. No sign to confirm anything just a believing new heart that God can look upon and cause growth .
 

TheLearner

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#35
Which academic commentaries on 1 Corinthians ??? and what exactly do they say?

What if I could speak all languages of humans and even of angels? If I did not love others, I would be nothing more than a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.

Why do the better translations start with "IF"??
 

MadHermit

Junior Member
May 8, 2018
388
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#36
I am challenging the idea of outward sign gifts as charismatic gifts all together. We walk by faith . I would call it spiritual gifts. No sign to confirm anything just a believing new heart that God can look upon and cause growth .
garee,

Your distinction between spiritual gifts and charismatic gifts is bogus because the Greek word for spiritual gifts is "charismata.," which means "charisms" and hence "charismatic gifts!!
And you overlook the fact that Paul explicitly identifies tongues and prophecy as sign gifts:
"Tongues are a SIGN...for unbelievers, while prophecy is a SIGN..for believers (1 Corinthians 14:22)."
"These SIGNS shall follow them who believe...They will speak with new tongues. (Mark 16:17)."
 

TheLearner

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#37
I am really not understanding this thread.

1 Corinthians 14:22 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
22 And from this we see that the use of different languages shows how God deals with those who don’t believe, not with those who believe. And prophecy shows how God works through those who believe, not through unbelievers.


1 Corinthians 14:22 Good News Translation (GNT)
22 So then, the gift of speaking in strange tongues is proof for unbelievers, not for believers, while the gift of proclaiming God's message is proof for believers, not for unbelievers.
 

MadHermit

Junior Member
May 8, 2018
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#38
I am really not understanding this thread.

1 Corinthians 14:22 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
22 And from this we see that the use of different languages shows how God deals with those who don’t believe, not with those who believe. And prophecy shows how God works through those who believe, not through unbelievers.


1 Corinthians 14:22 Good News Translation (GNT)
22 So then, the gift of speaking in strange tongues is proof for unbelievers, not for believers, while the gift of proclaiming God's message is proof for believers, not for unbelievers.
Let's set aside the inaccuracies of both translations. Paul is saying that tongues and prophecy are signs for unbelievers and believers respectively. But as academic commentaries point out, the reverse is also true: prophecy is also a sign for unbelievers. Indeed, the example he offers in 14:24-25 illustrates how the gift of prophecy is used to convert the unbeliever; and Mark 16:17 identifies tongues as "a sign" of the true believer!
By the way, what I mean by "academic commentaries" is a commentary written for scholars and pastors who are trained in Greek and Hebrew. These commentaries sprinkle words from these languages throughout.
 
Mar 28, 2016
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#39
garee,

Your distinction between spiritual gifts and charismatic gifts is bogus because the Greek word for spiritual gifts is "charismata.," which means "charisms" and hence "charismatic gifts!!
And you overlook the fact that Paul explicitly identifies tongues and prophecy as sign gifts:
"Tongues are a SIGN...for unbelievers, while prophecy is a SIGN..for believers (1 Corinthians 14:22)."
"These SIGNS shall follow them who believe...They will speak with new tongues. (Mark 16:17)."
"Charismata., a divinely conferred gift or power. Nothing about being a sign to confirm anything .We walk by faith the unseen, confirmed by the same unseen work of Christ who works in us.

Spirit not seen .Spiritual working of the gifts not seen.

I don't think a person a can find the word "gift and as a personal sign to confirm " in the same context.

"Tongues are a SIGN...for unbelievers called a evil generation .

Prophecy has no outward sign . Prophecy that which leads. . No outward sign needed to confirm a person has the Holy Spirit .We are given the fulness of the Spirt that comes to dwell in us when we first believe.

The idea of going somewhere once a week to top off the filling of the Spirt is not a biblical teaching or at least from my perspective,

We walk by faith the unseen not after the things of this world , lust of the eye, lust of the flesh. They simply provide a false pride or improper zeal for knowing God not seen,

Its a evil generation, natural man that seeks after the things seen before they will believe.God not seen
 
Mar 28, 2016
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#40
Let's set aside the inaccuracies of both translations. Paul is saying that tongues and prophecy are signs for unbelievers and believers respectively. But as academic commentaries point out, the reverse is also true: prophecy is also a sign for unbelievers. Indeed, the example he offers in 14:24-25 illustrates how the gift of prophecy is used to convert the unbeliever; and Mark 16:17 identifies tongues as "a sign" of the true believer!
By the way, what I mean by "academic commentaries" is a commentary written for scholars and pastors who are trained in Greek and Hebrew. These commentaries sprinkle words from these languages throughout.
I would offer. It does not say that signs confirm something are for both believers and unbelievers .Signs can lead or they can follow. Prophecy leads.

The sign of rebellion is pointing to those who refuse to believe prophecy, (God's word) Its what signs show... those who refuse to follow prophecy. And in the end make personal experience the validator of unseen spiritual truths of God . This is even in respect to the Son of man, Jesus our example. We are given the witness of the Son of man in Mathew 4 receiving what some call a out of the body experience or a vison or dream any fleshly experience. Which were with Jesus nothing more than a sign as a "lying wonder" (source of faith) .In regard to that lying thought coming from the father of lies working in Jesus. Jesus three time replied, as it is written and again as it is written (the letter of the law), to indicate the one source of faith by which we can believe God not seen. The devil struck out strike three

I offer two colors to help give my opinion and keep the opposing groups and mindset separate..

Two different opposing groups / those who believe God .No outward sign witness. And those who seek witness as a sign. They believe not prophecy .(God's word) The one source of faith, as it is written

In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and "yet for all that" will they not hear me, saith the Lord. Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.1 Corinthians 14: 21 -22

And yet for all that will they not hear me, says the Lord. They are reckoned of men who have no faith (zero none). a sign to the whole world to seek God as it is written and see no evil in doing so.

The sign points to those below.

As for the word that thou hast spoken unto us in the name of the Lord, we will not hearken unto thee. But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for then had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil.