Why I no longer believe in the penal substitution theory of the Atonement

Your idea that we are now righteous in Christ apart from our behaviour seems a contradiction.
If we are Holy no matter how we live, or pure no matter how we commit impure acts, or saved
though we live as if we will not inherit eternal life, then the verses saying the opposite would
not be present.

It is obvious to me you want to apply an idea of theology on to believers when scripture declares
this is not so.

8 The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.
10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.
Galatians 6:8-10

Sadly even when scripture declares otherwise I am sure you will continue in your position.

Scripture proves you wrong.

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1 John 1:8

There is a great distinction between having sinned in our lives and do we currently walk
in purity, holiness and faith with God.

If one holds one can be cleansed and walk in purity this verse makes sense,

Brothers, if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should restore him gently. But watch yourself, or you also may be tempted.
Gal 6:1

16 Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.
James 5:16

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 1:9

We always walk in grace and desire to do good and follow His ways.

Actually, Magenta is right.........

Yeshua/Jesus the Christ - the Messiah while on Earth, He was given the Holy Spirit without measure, and together The Word and The Spirit in a human body (the Word made flesh and dwelt among us as the only begotten Son of God yet, He was also the Son of Man.) showed us The Father, humanly fulfilled all The Law of Moses, fulfilled all that was written by the prophets concerning Him as the Messiah, and humanly fulfilled the penalty for not fulfilling the Law of Moses.

On the Mount of Transfiguration, Yeshua/Jesus was judged by the Law and the Prophets - Moses and Elijah. He was transfigured because He passed. All was fulfilled........except one last thing......the penalty for not fulfilling the Law.........death.

So, off to the cross He went........all these "works" needed to be fulfilled and recorded in His human body for us. He was preparing the gift of eternal life for us - Isaiah 53.

Yeshua/Jesus died saying, "It is finished," because He heard His Father say, "It is finished." He was buried and rose again on the third day.....which is good news for us and all who will believe! The "Human Sacrifice - The Lamb of God" was received - it had no spot, wrinkle or blemish.

His human fulfillment of the Law for us in His body is His Righteousness that He gives us - The Lord our Righteousness. His shedding of blood for us cleanses us from sin freeing us from death. We too shall rise from the grave just as He did.

It was all part of The Father's plan from the beginning.......the lamb was slain before the foundation of the world and God spoke of the seed of the woman, the prophets explained it all before God manifested it.

Magenta is correct, we are clothed in His Righteousness, not our own.

There is a tension within this theology.
The thief on the cross, had no opportunity to committing sins in the usual way, being on a cross
so his righteousness was Jesus's after being cleansed by faith in showing faith in Jesus and
asking Him to remember Him.

In grace we will always stand on the foundation of what Christ has purchased through the
cross, as the fountain of forgiveness.

But it is obvious, that if one continues in sin, walks against Gods will, sows to the flesh or
evil passions of the heart, all that is in faith is pointless.

There are two paths we can walk, the broad way or the narrow way that leads to life.

13 Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.
14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
Matt 7:13-14

Jesus did not say salvation is just the gate, but the path and its destination, life.
What is interesting to me, is how closed hearted people who only respond by intellectual
assent to God, yet shut Him out of their hearts expect things to change when they meet
Him.

Like those that find Gods word is a fragrance of death to them now, Jesus will be the fragrance
of death to them on that last day. How does the sermon on the mount feel to your heart?
Where is your loyalty?

I ask this simply because to me these are the words of Life, the words of Jesus, telling us that
to follow them and put them into effect is building our house upon the rock.

I know many claim to know Jesus but find these words total condemnation and death. This should
worry anyone, when Jesus declares this is the narrow path that leads to life. If one calls these words
of satan and the enemy, then there is a real need for repentance and cleansing. And I can state
Jesus in no way excludes anyone who humbles themselves before Him and the cross, and you will
discover your heart changes and you become something you thought was impossible. Praise God He
can change us, and deliver us to the Kingdom of Heaven, Amen

I wouldn't say "tension," just a misunderstanding. The Word and Holy Spirit will cause us to know the truth of all things - in time as we diligently seek to know and love God more and more.

Yes, I agree.

Yes, Yeshua/Jesus Christ purchased us - body, soul and spirit - with His Life and Blood on the cross.

Well, there are wolves in sheep's clothing and there are lost sheep.........I'd recommend all the sheep staying close to the Shepherd and not be so quick to judge one another or run off to do their own thing.

It is the Shepherd that destroys the wolves and the Shepherd that goes looking and finds His lost sheep.

I love the narrow gate..........it is Yeshua/Jesus and Him alone.......the only way that leads to life......eternal life.

It's so much easier to just trust Him. No flesh will glory in His presence.

Getting caught up in all the do's and don'ts destroys the love relationship - I'll lose my "first love" if I do that. I prefer to seek to learn and know God's likes and dislikes.

He likes humility and hates pride. He likes mercy and hates oppression. He likes truth and hates lies.......


Only the natural, carnal, flesh man will find God's Word a fragrance of death because it is so, with them. This is true. My flesh is also being killed daily by God's Word and I rejoice in this.

Yes, the words of Yeshua/Jesus are Spirit and Life. Obeying His teachings and instructions are wisdom - the pure Will of the Father for us.

I do love the sermon on the mount, my heart rejoices over it. The beattitudes are a beautiful display of the progression of a believer's life..............

Don't you just love all the secrets that are hidden in the scriptures! The Father is so wonderful to give us the Holy Spirit to reveal and feed us with the hidden manana.........

So. No need to be so surprised.................mockers and scoffers will come.......so what. Many will even come in His Name............so. None of this is unusual.

I see no need to worry over it. Shake the dust off your sandals and go to the next town, just like Yeshua/Jesus told His disciples to do. Keep your heart filled with love, peace and joy. Perhaps the Lord will send another when the person is ready to hear...........sometimes, we're just there to til the ground.....

Amen, and amen!

I enjoyed your post! Thanks for sharing!

Thank you sister.
I love your reaction to Jesus and His encouragements. They likewise are life to my soul.

People always go the "nth degree" which is meaningless and a non starter because it makes many underlying presumptions

Please clearly state how many good works save or how many sins damn?

Oh goodness, ya know, I just think there's a lot of wolves in sheep's clothing, goats and lost sheep running around.........no worries. God will sort us all out.

We still need to stay close to our Beloved Shepherd and follow Him. No fretting over other people and what they're doing wrong or right.

Sheep of Yeshua/Jesus' pasture know His Voice and follow Him. Sheep don't follow other sheep, we get in trouble if we do.

Indeed He will!! Amen and Amen

Nice to hear your opinion. What do you think of this explanation by Paul in the scripture on why he did not focus on Jesus earthly ministry? 2 Cor 5:16

Wherefore we henceforth know no man after the flesh: even though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now we know him so no more.[/QUOTE]
Thats interesting one to me. I don't understand it. So when Paul says he knows Christ no longer is he speaking according to his flesh? Since he knew Jesus according to his flesh prior to being born again?

Now that he is baptized in the Holy Spirit all things are new. And anything prior to being a new creature we know no longer. But Paul includes Christ in that equation. He is saying Christ dying served its purpose to reconcile us to God. And now we should live according to the one who gave His life for us.

So repenting means to turn to God. Jesus reconciled us to God by His act on the cross for us. We can turn to God now, and were not under condemnation. Is that what you get from 2 Cor. 5:14-21 ?

Would it upset you if Ted Bundy was in heaven or would there be joy in your heart knowing that he was in the presence of God's love?

Thats a good question. Id be happier if his soul was saved. We dont want anyone to go to hell. Right? No one is better than the other. We all fall short. Hopefully Ted finally saw the light before they executed him.

The straightforward interpretation is that the Gospel we are living now is pretty much based on the DBR of Jesus.

Churches who keep preaching the 4 Gospels, with a pinch of Paul's letters thrown in, are following Christ while he is in the flesh.

Church doctrine should be based on the letters of Paul, who preach the ascended Christ almost all the time, one key exception of course was the last supper, which Paul devoted an entire half chapter on (1 Cor 11).

But even then, you noticed he got the revelation, not from the other 11 disciples who actually had experienced with Jesus in the flesh, but rather from the ascended Christ himself. (Gal 1:17, Gal 2:6).

I believed that is what Paul meant in the above passage. Preachers who love to preach from the 4 Gospels exclusively will of course horrified about this, I can imagine Francis Chan among them.

Hey what you showed me is deep. Galatians chapter 2 Paul is complaining a bit. Correct me if im wrong but Paul is saying Peter brought division. They were seperating themselves from the gentiles it seems like but that only happened once Peter brought that teaching.

Paul didnt seem to happy. Sounds like he was trying to get Peter to realize they didnt live like the jews any longer and the gentiles were better off not learning the customs of the jews. Im assuming the laws that the jews enforced. And that would make Jesus death and ressurection in vain. Which basically meant for them to quit being legalistic. Thats not why Christ died on the cross or that would all have been in vain.

Am I missing something here? It sure sounded like Paul was rebuking Peter. Paul had revelation from God and was trail blazing like none other from the sounds of Galations 1 and 2 that you pointed out.

You are not alone, I think many Christians never really read Galatians 1-2 in detail, I was personally surprised when I realized how much nuggets of truth are contained in those chapters.

My opinion is this, if you read Acts 21, it is very likely that James, in his life on earth, never did understood Paul's gospel completely. He kept insisting that the Jews needed to keep the Law even after Acts 15. Since he is like the head of the Jerusalem HQ, even Peter, the one whom Jesus wanted to be the head of the church, had to comply. As a result, you saw the account in Galatians 2.

But its okay since after Acts 15, it is understood that Paul is the apostle to the Gentiles, while Peter James and John are apostles to the Jews. (Galatians 2:9)

Ya bro thats new to me. I wouldnt think they would be having contention among themselves especially with such a huge event like Jesus being the centerpiece of their lives.

Acts 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

Thats what they agreed was what was ordered for the gentiles to keep. Rather than circumsicion and the burden of the law. That seems like a light yoke. Pretty fair enough. Is that why scripture says my yoke is light? (Matthew 11:30)

If this is all that is part of the new covenant why does the church make it seem so arduous? At the end of Acts 15 it says the contentions between Paul and John were so thick they went seperate ways. Did it have to do with Paul being a killer prior to him receiving the Holy Spirit? Or him being a roman jew? He seems ostrasized by the other apostles.

What was settled in Acts 15 was how the Gentiles are supposed to live after they are saved. The decision was that the Law of Moses, which includes the moral law, does not apply to them. Those 4 things you listed in v29 are NOT requirements of that Law, they are just conditions so that they do not offend the Jews whom they are living with.

What was NOT settled then was whether the Jews also need to keep the Law of Moses. From Acts 21, it was clear that, according to boss James, the Jews were still not exempted from the Law of Moses, which included not associating with Gentiles. That was what Peter was in two minds about, in the incident in Galatians 2. Once you realized this, you will understand the book of James much better, and you will not worry about trying to apply chapter 2 to the Gentile Church.

You use of John confused me a bit, but that John is Mark, which wrote the Gospel of Mark. It was not the Apostle John, that walked with Jesus. . The account explained 38 but Paul did not think it wise to take him, because he had deserted them in Pamphylia and had not continued with them in the work.

You had asked me a question before. If you read Apostle Paul's letters, you realized he almost never mentioned anything about Jesus's earthly ministry? Why do you think he focused so much on the DBR of Jesus instead?

When I read Acts 21-28 it became clear. Pauls revelation on the road to demascus was the risen Lord. Jesus was talking to him and gave him the new ministry. So because Jesus was alive and speaking to Paul, Paul was to tell the church everything Jesus told him to. Thats why he didnt focus on Jesus earthly ministry. That was all done in the flesh. Jesus was now in the Spirit.

Its also clear from Pauls letters that Paul was getting the bride ready for Christ second coming. What was of the flesh was of the flesh but as Christ bride we are no longer of the flesh. Old things have passed and I believe thats what he was referring to when he includes Christ in that in 2 Cor. 5. Furthermore Christ is risen and is now Spirit. We too are Spirit who are born again and now we must prepare ourselves in the Spirit for what is to come. Paul teaches extensively on this.

Makes sense to me. Im glad you pointed me to those scriptures. It was clear when he told the King Agrippa.

Acts 26:14 And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
15 And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.
16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;
17 Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,
18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

I noticed how the King believed the prophets and believed what Paul was saying. And the King responds that he almost persuades him to be a Christian. Seems like simply believing is not enough to be a Christian and even King Agrippa had an understanding of this.

In verse 27 King Agrippa, believest thou the prophets? I know that thou believest.
28 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.