Two questions

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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#21
#21
DarnellPistachio said:
if adam and even were created perfect "in all ways" then they wouldn't have disobeyed. Furthermore, they wouldn't have even listened to the serpent babble on. the fact that they ate of the fruit tells you they were not perfect in all ways.
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So adam and eves free will was not perfect?

Sorry, But I can not agree with this statement

look at the beast of the field. it fornicates, but it is not guilty of fornication. I think this is what OP was trying to establish as a thought. If it is not what OP was going for, then I apologize but it is what I have been wondering lately.
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The beast of the field is not made in Gods image, so it would not apply. The beast is doing what comes naturally to him. Adam and eve did not. They went against the natural order and chose to go their own way.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#22
#22
DarnellPistachio said:
Then why did God flood the world? They had no law as far as Gensis is concerned.
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Yes, They had no law which specifically said, Do this, you will die.

Thats why God gave it to man in stone, so man no longer had an excuse. (Even though they knew all long those things were sin)
 
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DarnellPistachio

Member
#23
Apr 10, 2019
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#23
eternally-gratefull said:
So adam and eves free will was not perfect?

Sorry, But I can not agree with this statement



The beast of the field is not made in Gods image, so it would not apply. The beast is doing what comes naturally to him. Adam and eve did not. They went against the natural order and chose to go their own way.
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Perfect free will means you weigh your options perfectly, and act accordingly. There is no other description of perfect. So, no. They were deceived. Again, a perfect free will cannot be deceived.


Just because you say it doesnt, doesnt mean it doesnt. In fact, by you saying it doesnt, I see that you simply do not comprehend it. As you said, the beast of the field is doing what comes naturally to him. so sex isnt natural for me or other humans? I am a freak of nature because I experience lust? lol I know thats not what you mean, but it is the slippery slope you are walking atop.

Adam and Eve ate from the tree of the KNOWLEDGE OF good and evil. it was not called the tree of good and evil. Therefore, when they ate of the fruit Adam hid himself, KNOWING that he was naked. He was naked before that, but was not GUILTY of it. Same goes for the very act of eating the fruit. Adam did not regret what he had done, until there was KNOWLEDGE of it. He had no KNOWLEDGE of good and evil prior to eating the fruit, therefore, could have done whatever he wanted, and been innocent. But he DID know that he was told NOT TO. Therein lies the conundrum for me. Dont you see? Adam didnt even KNOW he was disobeying God, or at the very least -- didnt KNOW there was anything wrong with doing so.
 
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DarnellPistachio

Member
#24
Apr 10, 2019
69
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#24
eternally-gratefull said:
Yes, They had no law which specifically said, Do this, you will die.

Thats why God gave it to man in stone, so man no longer had an excuse. (Even though they knew all long those things were sin)
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so then if they had an excuse, why did he flood the world?
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#25
#25
DarnellPistachio said:
Perfect free will means you weigh your options perfectly, and act accordingly. There is no other description of perfect. So, no. They were deceived. Again, a perfect free will cannot be deceived.
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Thats not free will. Thats called being pre-programmed. Once again, In order for God to SERVE and LOVE his creation, and in order for Gods creation to SERVE and LOVE HIM back. They must

1. Be able to appreciate and have gratitude for all that God has and is doing
2. Be able to chose to go against that

If I have no possible way to determine I want to chose another way. I have no capacity to truly love or appreciate what is given to me.



Just because you say it doesnt, doesnt mean it doesnt. In fact, by you saying it doesnt, I see that you simply do not comprehend it. As you said, the beast of the field is doing what comes naturally to him. so sex isnt natural for me or other humans? I am a freak of nature because I experience lust? lol I know thats not what you mean, but it is the slippery slope you are walking atop.
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This is not a response. Either show something which shows that I am wrong. Or admit that you have to agree.

Or should I call you a darwinist??

The problem with sin is it goes against our nature, our DNA, that is

1. Why it is so destructive
2. Why it causes so many problems emotionally as well as physically
3. Why God is so against it, because he wants what is BEST for us.

And animal having sex with multiple partners is not going to damage that animal. Because the animal was never made to only be tied to one animal. And it has no emotional connection.

The first thing I would recommend you do is try to learn what sin is and why it is so damaging to us as a people.

Adam and Eve ate from the tree of the KNOWLEDGE OF good and evil. it was not called the tree of good and evil. Therefore, when they ate of the fruit Adam hid himself, KNOWING that he was naked. He was naked before that, but was not GUILTY of it. Same goes for the very act of eating the fruit. Adam did not regret what he had done, until there was KNOWLEDGE of it. He had no KNOWLEDGE of good and evil prior to eating the fruit, therefore, could have done whatever he wanted, and been innocent. But he DID know that he was told NOT TO. Therein lies the conundrum for me. Dont you see? Adam didnt even KNOW he was disobeying God, or at the very least -- didnt KNOW there was anything wrong with doing so.
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Ok, lets try to look at it this way

1. In eating the tree, Adam gained KNOWLEDGE of what evil was
2. In eating of the tree, Adam Died spiritually
3. In eating of that tree, his nakedness and shame was brought to the forfront, so he wanted to cover it up. So he could hide from the reality of what he had done.
4. As scripture says, the things of God are foolishness to those who are not his. Once adam died spiritually to God. The things of God no longer made sense to his new nature, thus they were foolish to him. And adam acted out his new nature.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#26
#26
DarnellPistachio said:
so then if they had an excuse, why did he flood the world?
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He had an excuse as the fact that you can not punish people eternally for something that there is no law against

Thats why when moses was given the law. God made them swear an oath that would CONFIRM and OBEY every word. What was the penalty for not living up to this standard (perfection) Death.

The flood came because God looked at the world. And found that NOT ONE PERSON left would REPENT of their sin and come to God in FAITH like Noah and Cain and Abel and the other people who were saved before the law. And if he LEFT man to continue there would be no one left alive who would follow God. Which means you or I would mose likely not be here today, Because God would have wiped humanity off the face of the earth.

Is there something you are fishing for? Because your not making any sense at all
 
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DarnellPistachio

Member
#27
Apr 10, 2019
69
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#27
Adam died spiritually? That is not scriptural. That is a definition given to it by man to appease himself. i.e. "the day you eat of it you will surely die."

so is it then the day the he will die, or is it the day where he will SURELY die? Let us appeal to scripture:

Genesis 3:22, 23 KJV


22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23 Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

So in verse 22 we see clearly that if God had NOT cast Adam and Eve out of the garden, they could have both lived forever AND known good from evil.

in Revelation, Jesus says "...and I will give to him permission to eat from the tree of life..." i.e. humanity restored to its original condition, where "the former things will be remembered no more," i.e. we will have no KNOWLEDGE of the former things, which are of course contemporary to us.

We can then conclude, that the death was caused by the revocation of permission to eat of the tree of life, NOT by the eating of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil. There is no wriggle room.
 
Lanolin

Lanolin

Well-known member
#28
Dec 15, 2018
23,460
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#28
pottersclay said:
1. Did God create man with a sin nature.

2. Does God view sin different if we are tricked by the devil. vrs listening to another.



Please be civil and present scripture proof. Personal opinions are just that. If you bring popcorn be willing to share. And please don't derail.
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1. no. He created them in His own image, male and female he created them. genesis 1:27
2. No, both Adam and Eve were punished, in different ways, adam to work and eve to bear children, in sorrow but the ultimate wages of sin were exactly what He said it would be for both..Death. Genesis 2:17
 
dcontroversal

dcontroversal

Banned
#30
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,401
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#30
DarnellPistachio said:
Adam died spiritually? That is not scriptural. That is a definition given to it by man to appease himself. i.e. "the day you eat of it you will surely die."

so is it then the day the he will die, or is it the day where he will SURELY die? Let us appeal to scripture:

Genesis 3:22, 23 KJV


22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23 Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

So in verse 22 we see clearly that if God had NOT cast Adam and Eve out of the garden, they could have both lived forever AND known good from evil.

in Revelation, Jesus says "...and I will give to him permission to eat from the tree of life..." i.e. humanity restored to its original condition, where "the former things will be remembered no more," i.e. we will have no KNOWLEDGE of the former things, which are of course contemporary to us.

We can then conclude, that the death was caused by the revocation of permission to eat of the tree of life, NOT by the eating of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil. There is no wriggle room.
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HAHAHHAHAHAHH.....

Paul----> I was alive once without the law, sin revived and I DIED.....<-he was very much ALIVE physically when he wrote that...there is ONLY two ways MEN DIE......physically and or SPIRITUALLY..............
 
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DarnellPistachio

Member
#31
Apr 10, 2019
69
20
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#31
dcontroversal said:
Because he is GOD......and can do what he wants to do............ ;)
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Okay, let us reason with that logic. Why the crucifixion? If He can do what He wants (which I agree He can) and He desires ALL to be saved (which I agree He does) then why not let everyone into "Heaven?"

The only answer is because He is bound to laws that He Himself created for us. By this I mean, justice by His own definition is not served unless Christ be crucified.
 
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DarnellPistachio

Member
#32
Apr 10, 2019
69
20
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#32
dcontroversal said:
HAHAHHAHAHAHH.....

Paul----> I was alive once without the law, sin revived and I DIED.....<-he was very much ALIVE physically when he wrote that...there is ONLY two ways MEN DIE......physically and or SPIRITUALLY..............
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I am not arguing any of that. It is irrelevant to what I said.
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#33
Jul 31, 2013
37,714
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#33
DarnellPistachio said:
Perfect free will means you weigh your options perfectly, and act accordingly. There is no other description of perfect. So, no. They were deceived. Again, a perfect free will cannot be deceived.
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Adam was not deceived​
(1 Timothy 2:14)​
 
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seed_time_harvest

Senior Member
#34
Dec 9, 2011
14,102
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#34
pottersclay said:
So where did the sin nature in Adam come from?
Adam made by God only knew God and Eve. It is assumed that he saw the serpent and heard him.

Satan in heaven with God himself surrounded by holiness....how did his nature change?
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Although EVERYTHING was created by GOD, man had a choice,a choice to obedient or disobedient,he chose not to listen to the voice of GOD and the consequence was the sin nature,Adam chose to listen to a voice that was contrary to GODs WORD.
 
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seed_time_harvest

Senior Member
#35
Dec 9, 2011
14,102
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#35
pottersclay said:
So where did the sin nature in Adam come from?
Adam made by God only knew God and Eve. It is assumed that he saw the serpent and heard him.

Satan in heaven with God himself surrounded by holiness....how did his nature change?
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Nevertheless GOD told him what would happen If he(Adam)were to be disobedient to HIS WORD.
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#36
Jul 31, 2013
37,714
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#36
DarnellPistachio said:
in Revelation, Jesus says "...and I will give to him permission to eat from the tree of life..." i.e. humanity restored to its original condition, where "the former things will be remembered no more," i.e. we will have no KNOWLEDGE of the former things, which are of course contemporary to us.
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you are saying the tree of life is the tree of ignorance?

lack of knowledge = life?

God says His people are destroyed for lack of knowledge


DarnellPistachio said:
conundrum
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seed_time_harvest

Senior Member
#39
Dec 9, 2011
14,102
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#39
TooFastTurtle said:
1. No. Proof: God created man and said it was "good" in Genesis. Additionally if God would have created man with a sin nature, it would mean God is the author of sin.

2. No. Proof: God punished Adam and Eve for being deceived by the devil with horrific consequences that are with us to this day.
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GOD didn't want man to be disobedient but HE created man to make a choice whether right or wrong man had a right that GOD allowed to make his own choice.
 
Mem

Mem

Senior Member
#40
Sep 23, 2014
7,113
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#40
1) No. However, because man was made in the image of God, he was given the capability of logic and reason and along with that comes the potential to wrongly choose, when given the opportunity to ta/make the choice.

2) No. Man was given the freedom to trust, given the option between God and the serpent, Eve wrongly chose to trust the serpent and, I suppose since he was not deceived, Adam must've wrongly chose to trust himself. Ultimately, regardless from whom influence is offered, whether good or bad, it is each individual's personal responsibility to determine which voices we allow personal influence.
 
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