Why I now believe that salvation can be lost.

Overall, I just wanted to add something to what I said earlier, that if you're walking in perseverance and Holiness, confessing sin and in right standing with Christ, you shouldn't have to worry about the question of whether you can lose your salvation. But I also refuse to walk around in fear that if I do something, I will be condemned. This is something I tend to struggle with a lot. I think the right way to view this is to believe that if I mess up, I come back to Christ, make right with Him and move on. I don't allow sin to govern the way I think and act. Its something I need to remind myself of every day.

We definitely cannot merit salvation, but does that mean we cannot lose it? I also can give you 20 dollars as a gift and you can still lose it.

Yeah, we see it different. I see it directed to true believers, who truly converted at one time.

Hebrews 5:12-14 is about spiritual immaturity, 6:1 starts with a conjunction of “therefore” so its speaking to those same believers who are immature based on how I’m reading it. IMO if someone, who truly converted at one time, continues in willful sin or refuses to mature there are real consequences, but not loss of salvation.
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I heard this argued:
Do you agree those in Hebrews 3 were still God’s covenant people? Did they lose their salvation since they did not make it to the promise land? Did Moses lose his salvation since he didn’t make it to the promised land?
OT doesn’t say they lost their salvation; Numbers 14:20 if anything says He forgave them. They did physically die.

Yes, those promises are true eternally-gratefull, but those promises are dependent up on our having faith from beginning to end.

Remember, we are saved by grace through faith (on-going) and this not of ourselves. It is the gift of God, not by works.

I think the question many are asking is, if you stopped having faith, did you really have it to begin with?

My issue with this whole thing of "having faith from beginning to end" is what does that practically mean for the believer? Does it mean continually acting in a way which pleases God? Possibly but then there might be those who walk around in fear that they may lose their salvation if they sin, if you know what I mean? So, I don't know where the dividing line is. I do agree that we need to continually hold fast to the faith that we had when we first professed Christ but what happens if we stumble and fall? Or start willfully sinning? Does God abandon us? I need to do more study on the subject because for me and for many others, I am sure it is still an issue of contention.

Yes, there are conditions. As one example, consider the following:

"For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

Faith is the condition:

"Once you were alienated from God and were hostile in your minds because of your evil deeds. But now He has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy, unblemished, and blameless in His presence— [if] indeed you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope of the gospel you heard, which has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.



All of those promises are dependent upon faith from beginning to end, as well as the seal of the spirit. Here's another one:

"Then summoning him, his lord said to him, ‘You wicked servant, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. ‘Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow servant, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ “And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him." My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.” - Matt.18:23-35

In verse 27 the servant (believer) is forgiven. But then because he would not forgive a fellow servant (believer) the believer is not forgiven, but the judgment is reinstated and the servant ends up paying the original penalty that he was previously forgiven for.

I've come to truly believe that BOTH sides are right on the Eternal Security issue.

Those that believe that it is JESUS who keeps them saved, that once being born again, a Child of the Living God, that God will discipline those that are His Children, and go after them when they wander away, will NEVER lose the precious Gift of Eternal Life ARE RIGHT! They can never lose their Salvation.

Those that believe THEY have to work, or maintain their faith given to them from God, that can break the seal the Holy Spirit put on them, something ONLY Jesus can break, that were born Spiritually again from the dead only to die again Spiritually, ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT!!!
THEY can lose THEIR Salvation.

I don't know about you, but I praise the Lord with all my being I count myself in the 1st group.

How can they lose it?

Think about this folks.

He knows very well he is a firm believer, and that is his identity and security.

Sadly. He has no idea if 20 years from now he will still maintain that firm belief. He could lose it. And by doing this, lose his salvation. (Ie, his salvation rests solely on his own power and ability.)

In other words. His way to salvation is HIS ABILITY to believe, Not Gods ability to sustain his faith. Its a backwards way of adding works to the gospel. Without actually calling it works.

Interesting how you take what I say and turn it around 180 degrees!

I said - "Because "I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I have committed unto Him against that day." (II Tim. 1:12) My confidence and assurance rests in God and in His love and mercy, and not in the creed of man. "

You said, "In other words. His way to salvation is HIS ABILITY to believe, Not Gods ability to sustain his faith."

I do not think I said that my assurance of salvation rests in my own ability to believe? That is your interpretation of my life, I guess! That is OK; you are allowed your opinion. It does not change what I believe or knock my assurance in my Redeemer and my King!

They lose it by thinking their OWN works has some bearing on their Salvation. Which in essence means they NEVER knew Him and NEVER were saved.

However, I believe there are some who THINK they can lose it by somehow no longer having faith, yet will ALWAYS believe all the days since they were born again. Just because they THINK they can lose it, doesn't negate they are saved or COULD lose it.

It all boils down to asking yourself, is JESUS keeping me saved, or am I keeping MYSELF saved with a faith I can lose?


If you answer that Jesus is keeping you saved as a born again Child of God, then you have to ask yourself if Jesus can or will fail.

If you are keeping YOURSELF saved, then you can lose your Salvation. Again, refer to previous paragraph.

They lose it by thinking their OWN works has some bearing on their Salvation. Which in essence means they NEVER knew Him and NEVER were saved.

However, I believe there are some who THINK they can lose it by somehow no longer having faith, yet will ALWAYS believe all the days since they were born again. Just because they THINK they can lose it, doesn't negate they are saved or COULD lose it.

It all boils down to asking yourself, is JESUS keeping me saved, or am I keeping MYSELF saved with a faith I can lose?


If you answer that Jesus is keeping you saved as a born again Child of God, then you have to ask yourself if Jesus can or will fail.

If you are keeping YOURSELF saved, then you can lose your Salvation. Again, refer to previous paragraph.

Interesting you would think I did.. I just interpreted what you said.

Exactly! You interpreted what I said. You did not believe that what I said could be true.

What I said does not match your personal doctrine and belief. I respect what you believe and you may believe what you want. That does not change what I believe.

Interesting post, Penned,

But trying to follow your reasoning has my brain spinning in all directions! ah, oh, ugh!

It seems like you are saying that if you think you might lose your salvation, then you might . . . -- but in reality then you were never saved . . . . . .

Your statement that "They lose it by thinking their OWN works has some bearing on their Salvation. Which in essence means they NEVER knew Him and NEVER were saved." doesn't seem correct???? Why? In my early years I was taught and at least lived like my works had some bearing on my salvation. Since then I have come to realize this is a very false foundation. But I still have friends with my background and upbringing, and although many of them still think their works have "some bearing on thier salvation", I know them well enough to know that they are genuinely saved.

Then eternal life is not eternal. And must be earned by our own power.

I believe in Gods omniscience. I do not for a minute think God is going to give a person ETERNAL life, Knowing at some point in the future, he will have to take it back.

So no. I can not believe this loss of salvation interpretation

I did not say that with the viewpoint I had shared; It says the opposite - once truly converted you can be disciplined here on earth and/or you lose rewards at the Judgement Seat of Christ, but not with loss of salvation. Hebrews has various warnings to true believers; these warnings have teeth.
Do you disagree with Hebrews 12:4-13? How would He discipline us - would it be limited in it’s forms?

Why did Paul say this to Corinthians? Paul says they also are on milk like those in Hebrews 5:12

“Brothers and sisters, I could not address you as people who live by the Spirit but as people who are still worldly—mere infants in Christ. I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭3:1-2‬ ‭NIV‬‬

“He will also keep you firm to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭1:8‬ ‭NIV‬‬

“That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep. But if we were more discerning with regard to ourselves, we would not come under such judgment.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭11:30-31‬ ‭NIV‬‬
https://www.bible.com/111/1co.11.30-31.niv

Yet you say that Hebrews is taling about believers who have fallen away and can no longer be renewed to repentance. Meaning they lost salvation.

Can you not see my issue?

In regards to 6:6 what I am saying I lived through. I got saved young, was on fire (even putting printed flyers I made in mailboxes about the good news), but later went cold, I got disciplined 20+ years later, am stronger and more aligned with His will, extremely grateful for the discipline, repented on those willful sins I had, stopped them and moving onwards.
That is what 6:6 is about per my view. He could have called me home (6:3). By no means do I have it figured out; but the viewpoint I shared is one I have heard discussed theologically that makes sense.
My salvation never changed throughout that period. Once I converted young I was reborn.

Ok but think

6:6 says if you fall away, you can not be renewed.

You walked away as a prodigal son (I did this myself for 5 years) and was restored, but you could not have fallen away, or according to hebrews 6, your salvation would be lost forever.

This is my point about the passage.