Not By Works

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
N

Noose

Senior Member
#103,261
Apr 18, 2016
5,096
932
113
#103,261
OneOfHis said:
Before God we are indeed justified by faith.

Before man, it takes works. Man can not see the heart like God can.

God is never surprised and does not require works to see He has started in someone.



For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; ->But not before God.<-

For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.


Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.


But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.


Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works.
Click to expand...
Why is everyone quoting this verse and what does this verse really mean?
No one says that anyone is justified by the works of the law like circumcision.

Rom 4:
9Is this blessing only on the circumcised, or also on the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham’s faith was credited as righteousness. 10In what context was it credited? Was it after his circumcision, or before? It was not after, but before.

11And he received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but are not circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them. 12And he is also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised, but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.

Paul is addressing gentiles who might have felt that Jews are closer to justification than them. So when Paul talks of works, he means works of the law. No one is justified by the works of the law.
 
N

Noose

Senior Member
#103,262
Apr 18, 2016
5,096
932
113
#103,262
OneOfHis said:
Are we saved by grace?
That would mean it is a gift and not based on merit....

If by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Click to expand...
Do you believe you have to forgive others for this grace (forgiveness) to be effective?
 
N

Noose

Senior Member
#103,270
Apr 18, 2016
5,096
932
113
#103,270
PS said:
I'm sad that you do not put all your faith in the redeeming work of Jesus. It is almost as though you do not fully trust Him to finish the work He came to do.
Click to expand...
Don't be sad, i put all my faith in the redeeming work of Jesus.
 
mailmandan

mailmandan

Senior Member
#103,271
Apr 7, 2014
25,475
13,419
113
58
#103,271
Noose said:
So when Paul talks of works, he means works of the law. No one is justified by the works of the law.
Click to expand...
Paul did not merely limit “works” to specific works of the law, but included works in general. (Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..). I often hear works-salvationists use that argument to teach we are saved by “these” works (good works) and just not “those” works (works of the law) in an effort to “get around” the truth, yet when it comes to the moral aspect of the law, you cannot dissect good works from the law (Matthew 22:37-40).
 
N

Noose

Senior Member
#103,272
Apr 18, 2016
5,096
932
113
#103,272
PS said:
Salvation is by faith alone. Works are the evidence of our faith by which we are justified.

I say the same as James. :)
Click to expand...
No.
James is saying something different from what you are saying. He clearly says a man is not justified by faith alone.

There are no works that could be considered as evidence of your assurance for salvation and if you are doing anything because you are assured of salvation then you need to stop.
 
OneOfHis

OneOfHis

Well-known member
#103,273
Mar 24, 2019
1,430
2,208
113
#103,273
Noose said:
Do you believe you have to forgive others for this grace (forgiveness) to be effective?
Click to expand...
Nope, I forgive others because I love God. (also saved regardless on how quickly or effectively I forgave... He is who worked the forgiveness in me)

Not to empower His grace.


Now instead of asking another question to my response, will you please answer my question?
 
N

Noose

Senior Member
#103,274
Apr 18, 2016
5,096
932
113
#103,274
mailmandan said:
Paul did not merely limit “works” to specific works of the law, but included works in general. (Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..). I often hear works-salvationists use that argument to teach we are saved by “these” works (good works) and just not “those” works (works of the law) in an effort to “get around” the truth, yet when it comes to the moral aspect of the law, you cannot dissect good works from the law (Matthew 22:37-40).
Click to expand...
Those verses pertain to a calling, but many are called yet few are chosen.

"As many believed, to them He gave the right to be called sons of God". He did not call them sons of God but gave them a right to be called sons of God.
You can a right to enter a door but still not enter it.
The mercy and grace of God covers everyone (whosoever). The calling covers that that believe in God's work. The chosen are those that endure to the end.
 
dcontroversal

dcontroversal

Banned
#103,275
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,402
113
#103,275
Noose said:
1. James wrote a letter to the church and there was no one to explain the letter, no Strong's Exhaustive Concordance; so James had to be clear and simple with his choice of words. But you are here trying to explain to me the letter and what James meant by 'justify' and what he did not mean.
When James penned these words down, he actually meant it
"..You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone."

2. There's no such thing as "faith with evidential works"

Think about what you are saying for a minute. Faith is the assurance and hope for salvation.

15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it?17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

If you give food to the needy because you hope for and are assured of salvation then the works are evidence of pride only. It is by love that you give.
Click to expand...
James wrote the letter to the 12 tribes scattered abroad.....you will NEVER grasp the truth until you HONOR and embrace the context of the letter
 
N

Noose

Senior Member
#103,276
Apr 18, 2016
5,096
932
113
#103,276
OneOfHis said:
Nope, I forgive others because I love God. (also saved regardless on how quickly or effectively I forgave... He is who worked the forgiveness in me)

Not to empower His grace.


Now instead of asking another question to my response, will you please answer my question?
Click to expand...
It means His grace is attached to something you have to do.

What was your question?
 
N

Noose

Senior Member
#103,277
Apr 18, 2016
5,096
932
113
#103,277
dcontroversal said:
James wrote the letter to the 12 tribes scattered abroad.....you will NEVER grasp the truth until you HONOR and embrace the context of the letter
Click to expand...
What i meant is that there was no one to explain the letter yet you are here explaining what clear simple words mean.
 
N

Noose

Senior Member
#103,278
Apr 18, 2016
5,096
932
113
#103,278
Moses' snake parallel.

1. Moses told them what to do.
2. They believed in Moses and the snake that was set up there - Faith
3. They still had to lift their eyes to look at the snake that was set up in obedience for their salvation - Work
4. Anyone who had faith in Moses and did not look up when bitten died because of disobedience

Now listen.

Jesus grace and atonement work is or everyone
Believing in Him and just sitting there doesn't take you anywhere
You need to obey His command and do as He commands- only then, your salvation is assured.
 
dcontroversal

dcontroversal

Banned
#103,279
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,402
113
#103,279
Noose said:
What i meant is that there was no one to explain the letter yet you are here explaining what clear simple words mean.
Click to expand...
It is obvious that to some these words are not so clear and simple.....because they get skewed and conflated with other truths on a regular basis
 
dcontroversal

dcontroversal

Banned
#103,280
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,402
113
#103,280
Noose said:
Moses' snake parallel.

1. Moses told them what to do.
2. They believed in Moses and the snake that was set up there - Faith
3. They still had to lift their eyes to look at the snake that was set up in obedience for their salvation - Work
4. Anyone who had faith in Moses and did not look up when bitten died because of disobedience
Click to expand...
HAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHHAHAH wow man......you are one of the biggest cake takers on this site.........

The bolded is as ridiculous as it comes.....the look INDICATED FAITH not works......this type of reasoning makes me want to spew
 
You must log in or register to reply here.