What do you believe and why do you believe it?

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notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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Sorry you feel that way. What I've said isn't nonsense. It's an accurate and honest account of my feelings on the matter. If Christian faith cannot withstand a little bit of scrutiny, is it really worth having? How powerful is your God really? A paper tiger protecting a House of Cards? One mild breeze could send the lot tumbling down.
You are correct it is not nonsense it is simply dishonest.

You do not like what you know about God. Your feelings do not chance the truth that God has declared. God has declared all men sinners and that the only atonement for sin is found in Jesus Christ.

You do not like that God has no respect for the opinions of men. God deals in grace not opinions.

You know better but you refuse to believe.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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1. If the Christian God exists he desires for us to know X.
2. If the Christian God exists he has the power for us to know X.
3. If the Christian God exists then, given 1 & 2, we should know X.
3 is a non sequitur. You make the assumption that you know best how God ought to act, and you measure from within time, not outside of it, though God must exist independently of time, so you both place your own judgment above why is by definition higher than you, and you employ an inappropriate metric to measure what you have incomplete knowledge of.
 

OneOfHis

Well-known member
Mar 24, 2019
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You might be right but there is no way for an outsider to know whether the experience is real or not. This makes it an unreliable pathway to truth. How do we as humans determine fact from fiction? We test evidence. We use reasoned argument. We deploy a scientific method to approach the truth of any claim. We can interview Alien Abductees right now and they will testify that the experience happened. Do you believe them? If not, why not?

You can't know Him if you do not have faith at first.

Faith


Belief, trust, confidence, fidelity (loyalty)


God knows the end from before the start.


If you personally ever had faith in Him, nothing in this world would cause you to not trust Him because He has never failed. If you think He failed you, your confidence is in your understanding and not in Him.
If you walk away from your understanding of Him without knowing Him enough to see He is perfect and never fails, you weren't loyal (faithful) to Him.


If you had a full faith, not just the sort of belief we have that a sports team is the best or that it may rain later.... You would have been born again and rooted in Christ.


The reason anyone walks away from Christ is because they don't know Him intimately.


4102. pistis ►
Strong's Concordance
pistis: faith, faithfulness
Original Word: πίστις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: pistis
Phonetic Spelling: (pis'-tis)
Definition: faith, faithfulness
Usage: faith, belief, trust, confidence; fidelity, faithfulness.
HELPS Word-studies
4102 pístis (from 3982/peithô, "persuade, be persuaded") – properly, persuasion (be persuaded, come to trust); faith.



If you have truly experienced Him working in you, there is no more doubt over who He is...
_____________


And how do you know that your conception of God is accurate?
I am His child, He is not hidden from me.

This is like asking how do I know if I set my bare hand on fire it will actually burn....


Because I've felt the heat of fire and now understand it's hot.

I may have initially listened to the warnings of my parents, but once I felt heat I knew fire was not to be played with.
 

Spectrox

Active member
Jul 25, 2019
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Look, EVERY person KNOWS God exists. We MUST start with this universal Truth or we do damage to the Word.

This fellow, and others like him, SUPPRESS this universal Truth, because they love unrighteousness:

Romans 1:18-19 New King James Version (NKJV)
God’s Wrath on Unrighteousness
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who [a]suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is [b]manifest [c]in them, for God has shown it to them.

He will also never understand Spiritual Truths beyond that there is a God, unless he get's born again:
1 Corinthians 2:14 New King James Version (NKJV)
14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

That's why the only real help we can offer him is to pray for him, and give him the Gospel.
I agree he has been here playing as if he had an intellectual interest in why people believe, and then he has argued with them for stating what they believe, it sounds to me that he is here to drag others into his hole with him, and it's time to say good bye, and show him the door.
I asked people on here what they believe AND why. If they only state what they believe then naturally I am interested in why.
 

Spectrox

Active member
Jul 25, 2019
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Look, EVERY person KNOWS God exists.
This is your wrong assumption and it's why you have a barrier to my questions. What you've said is demonstrably untrue. Just ask the millions of muslims, etc. and the millions of agnostics and atheists. Do you seriously believe that they KNOW the Bible is true and are in denial because they want to sin or something? Ridiculous.
 

Spectrox

Active member
Jul 25, 2019
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My pleasure.

What were you praying for?
Towards the end of my deconversion process I was praying that my questions and doubts would be answered. But they never were. I went into Christianity as a child but emerged as an adult I think.
 

Spectrox

Active member
Jul 25, 2019
363
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Can't answer my question eh,? You asked what I believe . . I believe a human person could not have come about by random, impersonal forces and a big bang explosion.

Could a human person really come about by random, impersonal forces which came from a big bang explosion?

If you want evidence for a God, look at the evidence in front of your eyes that you see every day. You are simply using your reasoning abilities (which itself shows a Creator) to try dismiss the objective evidence in front of your eyes.
I understand the point you are making and used to feel the same way, however technically it's called an Argument from Ignorance - I can't think of any reason why the world exists, therefore God did it. Science has provided insights into some of the mysteries of the Universe. There's a lot we don't know and are yet to discover. Why not rejoice in that instead of making a lazy assumption?
 

Spectrox

Active member
Jul 25, 2019
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You are welcome :) I am a former prodigal myself, as many of us no doubt were at one time, and we are all born enemies of God, and fall short of the glory of God, which is why we need a Savior. I think it is wonderful that you did experience the forgiveness God offers through the covering of the shed righteous blood of Jesus Christ.

I had a similar experience when I went to a church to watch a movie, around Passover in 1988, about Jesus Christ based on the gospel of Luke. That experience alone, which was profound by the way, was not enough to convince me of the Truth of God's eternal Living Word, though I did treasure knowing God loved me, for I was at the same time filled wholly with His unconditional Love, which probably helped save my life at that time.

I was raised in a fairly strict religious home but quit the church as a teenager, and realized I did not know Who Jesus was, which is one of the reasons why I went to see that movie then. I was thirty three years old.

The natural man, yes, I have mentioned him before... I went away from that experience thinking, too bad it happened in a church, so great was my aversion to all things relative to organized religion. You seem to have been in a similar place. I entered a seeking phase that lasted many years, but I was not open to accepting anything from a solely Biblical point of view. I explored other avenues I believed were spiritual, studying and practicing some in depth, while carrying on living my life to the best of my ability. I got clean and sober in 1994 after twenty four years of alcohol and drug abuse when I cried out for help to the God I did not believe in. Did I believe then? Nope! But my life started drastically improving. I began praying even though I did not believe in God, because I knew there was something, I just did not know what it was. More was revealed to me, slowly over time. There came a point where I could no longer deny that the God Who repeatedly revealed Himself to me was the same one I had been running from for most of my life. Yes, I had been attempting to define Him in ways that were acceptable to me as opposed to defining myself in ways that were acceptable to Him.

I left out a lot of details I would normally only tell Christians while testifying or people I am very close to. One day your story will be more complete and you too will have a testimony. Please pray, even if it is only to say "Please" in the morning and "Thank you" for the things you are grateful for at night, to begin with. Humbly ask God to reveal Himself to you in ways you can understand and accept in your present state.

I was trying to remember that Romans 8:28 verse for your thread here, and it was mentioned as part of our teaching at church earlier, and I made that graphic tonight. Thank you :)
Thanks for this Magenta, I appreciate this. You are definitely the nicest person on this forum so far. Nicer than me anyway!
 

OneOfHis

Well-known member
Mar 24, 2019
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I asked people on here what they believe AND why. If they only state what they believe then naturally I am interested in why.
Well I did not grow up a believer, I was more agnostic.

I did not become a believer by the influence of family or friends or someone I respected.

As a matter of fact most the people who were in my life would speak against God harshly. (amongst them even an ex-preacher now atheist)


I would occasionally pray.... but it was more of a "if anyone is really up there and can hear me... please do this for me or show me a sign.."
( selfish with no regards to how I've lived or my actions/words/thoughts were viewed by whoever I was praying to)


Through hearing bits and pieces of God's standards and how the modern world supposedly was pretty wicked in His eyes I felt a need to learn more.


One night I was hit hard.... I knew a lot of what I thought was ok or even good was actually wicked if God was indeed who He said.

After that I tried to ignore the new information,but I could not.
So I started reading the bible in hopes to find an error... something that can be PROVEN false that is not reliant on hear-say or faith in something men claim.

The more I read the more I was convinced that God is who He says.

This was maybe 6 years ago... now I not only know God is real but He has worked in me greatly. Supernaturally changed who I am at my core and shown me nothing but truth which can be observed anywhere I look.

I no longer have any fear of death or hell, only a godly fear of my heavenly Father who I wish to please opposed to disappoint.

Eventually after my faith was indeed true, I have seen things I believe to be signs. I have had prayers answered instantly as well.

Even if I wrote all that off as just coincidence I couldn't unknow someone I love so much who has shown me even more love...
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
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This is your wrong assumption and it's why you have a barrier to my questions. What you've said is demonstrably untrue. Just ask the millions of muslims, etc. and the millions of agnostics and atheists. Do you seriously believe that they KNOW the Bible is true and are in denial because they want to sin or something? Ridiculous.
What question do I have a barrier for?

And this is not my assumption. You may have indeed succeeded in suppressing the Truth about God to yourself. But YOU KNOW THERE IS A GOD! And you WILL be held accountable to Him, whether you suppress Him or not.

Further, those who have been born of God not only know He exists, but know HIM personally. He has foretold future events through His prophets and has a 100% track record.
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
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I understand the point you are making and used to feel the same way, however technically it's called an Argument from Ignorance - I can't think of any reason why the world exists, therefore God did it. Science has provided insights into some of the mysteries of the Universe. There's a lot we don't know and are yet to discover. Why not rejoice in that instead of making a lazy assumption?
You are again doing the same thing I said earlier. Human intellect and reasoning is something that by itself you have not explained to me how you got it? I say - Look at the objective evidence - The objective evidence screams out that there is a Creator!

You are using the Creation (intellect/reasoning) to try to explain away the Creator.
You said "science has provided insights . . ." - Where did science come from? It came from human intellect . . . - which came from where?

You say I should not make a "lazy assumption" - !? I am simply opening my eyes and looking at the objective evidence rather than using the objective evidence to explain away what is quite clear!

Here is the problem: if you admit that the objective evidence points to a Creator - then it is obvious that the Creator is more powerful and wise than you are - now you have someone who is in control!

And if you want to be in control yourself - you are not going to admit the objective evidence points to a Creator . . .

Let me suggest to you that what the depths of your heart long for are someone who will come along side of you and walk with you daily, you desire someone who will love for you, someone who will be a guide, a Friend, and an advocate. You desire a greater and more powerful theme for your life than simply existing for 70 years, having a little bit of fun and freedom, and then ceasing to exist. You were made for more - and that opportunity is available and waiting for those who call on my Jesus and my Lord!
 
Mar 23, 2016
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Could you do that for God?
Sure. And I could tell you about it ... but you would come up with some reasoning as to why the "conversation" never took place.

Hope/pray you have a very nice day today and that you find your way back to God.



 
Nov 23, 2013
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Thanks for the reply. I used to believe the Owner's Manual idea. But I realised there are lots of different manuals out there. How do you decide which is most likely to be true?
Only one book that I know of that is provably written by someone outside the bounds of time. Thousands of things written about thousands of years before they happened.

Only one book that describes the human condition to a “t”.

Only one book that I know of that has been signed by the same creator that is written about in its own self.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,921
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it's called an Argument from Ignorance - I can't think of any reason why the world exists, therefore God did it.
This is the same thing you did when you decided God doesn't exist because you can't understand why He hasn't convinced everyone of their need for Him:

PROPOSITION X
a. The Christian God exists.
b. All humans have sinned against the Christian God.
c. The Christian God desires to save all humans from their sins (1Timothy 2:4).

Logical syllogism:
1. If the Christian God exists he desires for us to know X.
2. If the Christian God exists he has the power for us to know X.
3. If the Christian God exists then, given 1 & 2, we should know X.
4. Most people on the planet do not know X.
5. Given 3 & 4, the Christian God probably doesn’t exist.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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Thanks for the reply. I used to believe the Owner's Manual idea. But I realised there are lots of different manuals out there. How do you decide which is most likely to be true?
I know this question wasn't to me, but...

there are a lot of different 'manuals'. Only one was written by the Creator. The rest are poor aftermarket imitations.
 

Journeyman

Well-known member
Jan 10, 2019
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Towards the end of my deconversion process I was praying that my questions and doubts would be answered. But they never were. I went into Christianity as a child but emerged as an adult I think.
What questions were you looking to have answered?
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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I agree with you that the starting point for morality is arbitrary but "maximising people's emotional and physical wellbeing" is a standard in of itself and it can be measured by the Social Sciences. There is an optimum wellbeing that can be reached. I think people know this deep down. The assumptions are that pleasure is preferable to pain, health is preferable to illness, life is preferable to death, freedom is preferable to incarceration, etc. Do you think these are good assumptions for a thriving, healthy, co-operative society for our children to grow up in?
You believe you have THE MORAL STANDARD but how did you decide that was the right one? More importantly, do you consider slavery and genocide to be moral or not?
Yes, I believe that I hold the standard, as revealed in the Bible.

Regarding slavery and genocide, you're cherry picking to justify your rejection of God. I'm not going to support your rebellion.
 
K

kaylagrl

Guest
Thanks for the reply. I used to believe the Owner's Manual idea. But I realised there are lots of different manuals out there. How do you decide which is most likely to be true?
The difference for me is that people exist but God might not exist. I think the word "relationship" is an inaccurate use of language. You would be able to write a rough, brief transcript of a recent meaningful conversation you had with a person. Could you do that for God?

Humm I noticed you blew right past my post. Was that on purpose? Just wondering. :)
 
K

kaylagrl

Guest
I agree with you that the starting point for morality is arbitrary but "maximising people's emotional and physical wellbeing" is a standard in of itself and it can be measured by the Social Sciences. There is an optimum wellbeing that can be reached. I think people know this deep down. The assumptions are that pleasure is preferable to pain, health is preferable to illness, life is preferable to death, freedom is preferable to incarceration, etc. Do you think these are good assumptions for a thriving, healthy, co-operative society for our children to grow up in?
You believe you have THE MORAL STANDARD but how did you decide that was the right one? More importantly, do you consider slavery and genocide to be moral or not?

If we are talking slavery that happened in the south before the civil war, yes that was immoral. There is slavery today, much of it in Muslim countries. Is it still immoral? As far as genocide, to what are you referring?
 

Jimbone

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2014
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Thanks for your response. You have stated many things about what you believe. I'm trying to get to the essence of WHY you believe this? What's your most compelling reason?

In answer to your question, a moral act in my view is anything a person says, writes or does that maximises mental and physical wellbeing in others and themselves (this includes animals as well as people). I find situational ethics a good starting point.
Ultimately no one can "give" you what you're asking for, someone can't be given truth, they have to seek it for themselves. I have to tell you that for me personally, and this isn't "proof" to or for you, but this is what convinced me. To set the tone real quick, I wasn't raised in a Christian home at all, I was a product of the public school system, and a broken home. Not bad by any means, and was well taken care of and loved, but just not in truth, not in Christ. So I didn't come with any baggage from indoctrination or anything like that. As a younger man I would have told you "All religion was man made by the power elite to control the dumb masses.", and would have proclaimed this as known truth, with certainty. I was my most certain at my most ignorant, but as I got older and my first son was born my heart softened to Jesus a little. During this time I was more like "I like the idea of Jesus, but I got bills to pay in the real world. I repeated the prayer, was even dunked under water for good measure, but that's all it was, superficial.

Along comes life, another son, addiction, work, life, school all these things as the years go by, then help for the addiction to pain pills that lead to actual prosperity. As a matter of fact on Oct. 25, 2011 while I was walking down the stairs I reflected on how awesome life was, my thoughts where something like "I just paid off both credit cards, I have money in the bank, am leaving my awesome job to hop on my motorcycle with my long "viking braid", hanging down my back, going home to my beautiful wife, who's making my favorite dinner, and my two awesome sons. "I" got life whooped, look at what "I" did." That's all I can remember be cause I never made it the 3 miles home that day and woke up 19 days later in a hospital with no function at all in my right arm. This was the beginning of me coming to truth and seeing how great I (my way) truly was.

Without making this too long I went 2 solid years wishing I was dead. As my situation kept unfolding I was just in a nosedive. First blow was that they couldn't "fix" my injury. I just had a dead arm hanging from me now, forever, and of course it was the dominate arm. Then I was not going to be compensated for it, that was my hope, and was misplaced hope because the girl that pulled out in fount of me, whose SUV I flipped hitting it T bone at about 50mph, well she had insurance and it carried 10k bodily insurance max, and I got every bit of it. Yay! Only I have 750k in medical bills who has a right to that move before I do. So that. Then the car I really love, it was a silver 07 Nissan Altima, $600 from being paid off, guy comes out of Lowes, all the way across right into my wife who was driving it and totaled out, as in the damage was less than the "totaled" amount, but close enough to call it. Just one thing after another to the point that for two solid years I could go 5 minutes without contemplating suicide. I would run down my list of justification, "My wife can find someone to love and take care of her, my job can replace me, my dad will get over it (a lie, it would have killed him), until I got to my boys, I knew no one would love them like their father, and nobody would work as hard for their good ass I would. So I was stuck.

2 years of this, every 5 minutes, every day, and I had "0" power to change any of it, and was stuck, powerless, hopeless, and broken. That is until Sept. 28th 2013 (I was 33), and I was at home alone like I never was, but it all came to a head that day. I hit my knees broken and cried out, but not what you think because at this point if I had ever believed in God, I didn't now. I tried being a "Christian" and it didn't help at all. When I hit my knees I cried out "I can't do this anymore, I can't do this anymore, I can't do this anymore, world you win, I QUIT!!! Then picked my tear soaked, sobbing, heap of brokenness and went to bed. The next day I woke up new, and I didn't realize until lunch "I haven't thought about killing myself all day!!!", and it was right then and there I knew whatever happen it was God, and that Jesus the Christ was His Son.

I wasn't sharing this simply for my story in truth to change you or convince you of anything at all, even though I pray God does, but you asked "why" I believe, and I have to tell you because I KNOW Jesus, and understand the my love for Him is beyond you understanding outside of Him. See when we bow down in front and give Him everything, He actually does something real, paradigm shifting, and powerful. He actual resurrects your dead spirit and reconciles us to Him, as we were created to be. This is why I believe and this is a custom story for each one of us, and I pray that my testimony of His power, kingship, and goodness, that this comment is part of your "custom story" of how God drew you to Himself. He is real, He is alive, and is King!!!