The serious errors of Oneness/United Pentecostals
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1 Peter 3:
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.
So im sorry Nehemiah what authority do you have?
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.
So im sorry Nehemiah what authority do you have?
1 Peter 3:19 So he went and preached to the spirits in prison— 20 those who disobeyed God long ago when God waited patiently while Noah was building his boat. Only eight people were saved from drowning in that terrible flood. 21 And that water is a picture of baptism, which now saves you, not by removing dirt from your body, but as a response to God from a clean conscience. It is effective because of the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
TLC209,
I'm going to mention a few things very quickly while I'm thinking of them.
I'm just pointing some things out, I'm not mad at you, and not out to get you.
1. In 1 Peter 3:19 we see that getting baptized is the act of someone with a clean conscience.... this creates some issues.
The act of baptism, in this verse, is the response of someone with a clean conscience.... someone who is answering with a clean conscience meaning he must HAVE a clean conscience with which to answer.
How did his conscious get clean?
Your conscience only gets clean when you're born again.
So, if this person has a clean conscience BEFORE being baptized (which he did) then he had to have been born again BEFORE being baptized.
This shows that conversion, being born again, must occur BEFORE baptism.
If you aren't already born again, then you don't have a clean conscience with which to answer God.
2. We have a logical fallacy of equivocation occurring here, regarding the word "saved."
Have YOU ever, ever in your life, used to word "saved" to refer to anything other than being born again?
Ever?
Surely, at some point in your life, you have used the word "saved" to refer to something other than spiritual conversion.
Perhaps you've said something like: "That medicine saved me from a terrible illness", or "My wife saved me from loneliness", or "The fireman saved a kid from a burning house" or "The lifeguard saved a girl from drowning."
Surely you've used the word "saved" to refer to things other than spiritual conversion.
So, armed with this insight, that a word can be used in different ways, and you even do this yourself.... we need to at least consider rethinking this verse.
Just because we see the word "saved" appear in a verse, it isn't logical to just immediately assume it can, and must, refer to nothing other than spiritual conversion. This kind of assumption can lead us into a logical fallacy called equivocation.
3. When Nehemiah posted that verse from 1 Corinthians 1:17-18, it was to show that baptism is not a condition for conversion.
1Co 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel:
Here, Paul is making a clear distinction that baptism is not actually part of the gospel... baptism and the gospel are separate things.
Why does this matter?
So what if baptism is not part of the gospel... what does that mean?
The apostles had the mission of preaching the gospel, and scripture makes it clear that it's this message of the gospel that saves us.
But Paul clearly says baptism is NOT part of the gospel.
Therefore:
a. it is the gospel message that has the power to save our souls
b. baptism is not part of the gospel
c. then it follows... baptism does not save our souls.
I'm not mad at anyone, I'm just pointing some things out for consideration.
Everyone take care, sleep well, and have a good night.
..
I'm going to mention a few things very quickly while I'm thinking of them.
I'm just pointing some things out, I'm not mad at you, and not out to get you.
1. In 1 Peter 3:19 we see that getting baptized is the act of someone with a clean conscience.... this creates some issues.
The act of baptism, in this verse, is the response of someone with a clean conscience.... someone who is answering with a clean conscience meaning he must HAVE a clean conscience with which to answer.
How did his conscious get clean?
Your conscience only gets clean when you're born again.
So, if this person has a clean conscience BEFORE being baptized (which he did) then he had to have been born again BEFORE being baptized.
This shows that conversion, being born again, must occur BEFORE baptism.
If you aren't already born again, then you don't have a clean conscience with which to answer God.
2. We have a logical fallacy of equivocation occurring here, regarding the word "saved."
Have YOU ever, ever in your life, used to word "saved" to refer to anything other than being born again?
Ever?
Surely, at some point in your life, you have used the word "saved" to refer to something other than spiritual conversion.
Perhaps you've said something like: "That medicine saved me from a terrible illness", or "My wife saved me from loneliness", or "The fireman saved a kid from a burning house" or "The lifeguard saved a girl from drowning."
Surely you've used the word "saved" to refer to things other than spiritual conversion.
So, armed with this insight, that a word can be used in different ways, and you even do this yourself.... we need to at least consider rethinking this verse.
Just because we see the word "saved" appear in a verse, it isn't logical to just immediately assume it can, and must, refer to nothing other than spiritual conversion. This kind of assumption can lead us into a logical fallacy called equivocation.
3. When Nehemiah posted that verse from 1 Corinthians 1:17-18, it was to show that baptism is not a condition for conversion.
1Co 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel:
Here, Paul is making a clear distinction that baptism is not actually part of the gospel... baptism and the gospel are separate things.
Why does this matter?
So what if baptism is not part of the gospel... what does that mean?
The apostles had the mission of preaching the gospel, and scripture makes it clear that it's this message of the gospel that saves us.
But Paul clearly says baptism is NOT part of the gospel.
Therefore:
a. it is the gospel message that has the power to save our souls
b. baptism is not part of the gospel
c. then it follows... baptism does not save our souls.
I'm not mad at anyone, I'm just pointing some things out for consideration.
Everyone take care, sleep well, and have a good night.
..
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What an absolutely Toxic dogma to preach to people... Having the Holy Spirit is essential to salvation and stating that one must be able to speck in tongues as evidence of having the holy Spirit is preaching that everyone who does not speak in tongues does not have the Holy Spirit and is therefore unsaved / a false Christian..
I thank God i am not a babe in Christ susceptible to having my faith in my LORD Jesus Christ crushed by such a hope sapping false doctrine...
May you be forgiven for preaching it..
I thank God i am not a babe in Christ susceptible to having my faith in my LORD Jesus Christ crushed by such a hope sapping false doctrine...
May you be forgiven for preaching it..
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I think you quote a hundred and never make the two different kinds of baptisms all one and the same. They were meant to be separate. They have different functions.
To be baptized in His name is to be baptized in a authority. Water is not an authority that confirm s being filing with something.. It is used ceremonially when a believer who had come under the baptism of the Holy has a personal desire to become a priest in the kingdom of priests after the new manner... It has its foundation in the Old testament . It is what John 3:25 is discussing. Why is a person from the tribe of Levi baptized and is now officiating new believers that do have a desire to become a priest as a am ambassador for Christ. . Who gave Jesus that authority. (water?)
Some of John’s followers had an argument with another Jew about religious washing. Then they came to John and said, “Teacher, remember the man who was with you on the other side of the Jordan River? He is the one you were telling everyone about. He is also baptizing people, and many are going to him.” John3:25
Some have simply destroyed the foundation so that they can chase after what they call sign gift.. (I did it that proves it I will hear nothing further works for me ) Water evaporates .The Holy Spirt does not .
To be baptized in His name is to be baptized in a authority. Water is not an authority that confirm s being filing with something.. It is used ceremonially when a believer who had come under the baptism of the Holy has a personal desire to become a priest in the kingdom of priests after the new manner... It has its foundation in the Old testament . It is what John 3:25 is discussing. Why is a person from the tribe of Levi baptized and is now officiating new believers that do have a desire to become a priest as a am ambassador for Christ. . Who gave Jesus that authority. (water?)
Some of John’s followers had an argument with another Jew about religious washing. Then they came to John and said, “Teacher, remember the man who was with you on the other side of the Jordan River? He is the one you were telling everyone about. He is also baptizing people, and many are going to him.” John3:25
Some have simply destroyed the foundation so that they can chase after what they call sign gift.. (I did it that proves it I will hear nothing further works for me ) Water evaporates .The Holy Spirt does not .
God is greater than man's conscience. From the moment one belives the process is begun .He our confidence will finish that work until the last day
God does the cleaning of our conscience if there is any done . Water does not clean our conscience.
It is not an appeal for a clean conscience but a desire to become a member of the new kind of Priesthood as ambassadors for Christ.,
Not all from the family of Levi were Priest . Only the Levi that had a personal desire to become a member of the priesthood.
The two different baptisms. They need to be rightly divided...... having different functions.
if a destroys the foundation of a doctrine then its easy to make it say something it was not intended to.
God does the cleaning of our conscience if there is any done . Water does not clean our conscience.
It is not an appeal for a clean conscience but a desire to become a member of the new kind of Priesthood as ambassadors for Christ.,
Not all from the family of Levi were Priest . Only the Levi that had a personal desire to become a member of the priesthood.
The two different baptisms. They need to be rightly divided...... having different functions.
if a destroys the foundation of a doctrine then its easy to make it say something it was not intended to.
7
is there something you are looking for exactly?
here is the actual list of what the oneness crowd are preaching.
here is the list the oneness people follow in order to secure their salvation
1. Acceptance of Jesus sacrifice and repentance
2. Water Baptism (receive the priestly garments)
3. Infilling of the Holy Ghost
4. Priestly office secured
5. Blood of Jesus sacrifice is applied
perhaps you would care to explain why you left off the last 2 and only included the first 3
by doing this, you are not actually responding to what I posted. you are creating a FALSE list, that I did not post, because you have an AGENDA
I am not interested in your agenda. you are setting your own house on fire and it will not end well
are you some kind of exception to 'thou shalt not bear false witness'?
here is the actual list of what the oneness crowd are preaching.
here is the list the oneness people follow in order to secure their salvation
1. Acceptance of Jesus sacrifice and repentance
2. Water Baptism (receive the priestly garments)
3. Infilling of the Holy Ghost
4. Priestly office secured
5. Blood of Jesus sacrifice is applied
perhaps you would care to explain why you left off the last 2 and only included the first 3
by doing this, you are not actually responding to what I posted. you are creating a FALSE list, that I did not post, because you have an AGENDA
I am not interested in your agenda. you are setting your own house on fire and it will not end well
are you some kind of exception to 'thou shalt not bear false witness'?
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Correct. We have one poster whining that false doctrines should not be exposed in the name of "love", but the most unloving thing that anyone can do is to pervert the true Gospel of God by making water baptism and tongues essential for salvation. That is no different than making circumcision essential for salvation, and Paul made it crystal clear that those who brought *another gospel* were accursed. Even if an angel brought it, he was accursed. (Galatians 1).
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would all oneness Pentecostals please refer to yourselves as such?
only asking so that when we see that you are inclined to roll that way, that way, we will better understand the vitriol being spewed at people who include baptism in obediecne to salvation, but who actually comprehend it is not a part of salvation
so go ahead and be slaves to your manmade doctrine
thankfully, the peace of God which passes all understanding, is not yours to give or take away
I see little of Christ in the oneness posts and you can quote me
only asking so that when we see that you are inclined to roll that way, that way, we will better understand the vitriol being spewed at people who include baptism in obediecne to salvation, but who actually comprehend it is not a part of salvation
so go ahead and be slaves to your manmade doctrine
thankfully, the peace of God which passes all understanding, is not yours to give or take away
I see little of Christ in the oneness posts and you can quote me
Yes brother I am not mad. Im not going to snap. Thats not how people should communicate. No worries.
So the first point you made, a good conscience prior to baptism, that is done by repentance correct? If we repent we will be forgiven. That gives us a clear conscience, correct?
Point 2 I agree completely, I find "saved" doctrine to be the most erred doctrine out there. Whether it be ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED, DISPENSATIONAL GRACE, SAVED BY GRACE etc etc "Saved" doctrine is greatly flawed and produces equivocacion.
So the view on saved as described by Peter, this water baptism saves us. Because as Peter noted, it is effective because of the ressurection of Jesus Christ. We all stand on this Faith. Our bodies are washed not of dirt, but of a good conscience towards God. Repentence, obedience, reconciliation.
Point 3 you say the gospel saves us. Again this comes from the fallacy of "saved" doctrine. How would the gospel save someone? Im sure you have shared the gospel with many, who chose to ignore and were no more saved then when you or anyone else shared the gospel with them. So where is the logic with your statement that the gospel alone saves?
Pauls job was to reach the gentiles with the Gospel. His plate was full, he helped the kingdom greatly, his job was not to baptize. There were others to handle this. Just as there were others to distribute food and what not. This does not in any way mean that baptism is not necessary.. any doctrine that claims otherwise must line up with scripture. You cannot use one verse if it conflicts with another.
No where does Peter teach us to be circumsized even though at one point that was his carnal position. The scriptures are inspired by the Holy Spirit, so no carnal mind goes into the bible, therefore it all lines up as ONE HOLY SPIRIT inspired.
I illstrated the Peter scripture to show the holes in the doctrine Nehemiah is trying to teach. And I assume you agree with Nehemiah.
So the first point you made, a good conscience prior to baptism, that is done by repentance correct? If we repent we will be forgiven. That gives us a clear conscience, correct?
Point 2 I agree completely, I find "saved" doctrine to be the most erred doctrine out there. Whether it be ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED, DISPENSATIONAL GRACE, SAVED BY GRACE etc etc "Saved" doctrine is greatly flawed and produces equivocacion.
So the view on saved as described by Peter, this water baptism saves us. Because as Peter noted, it is effective because of the ressurection of Jesus Christ. We all stand on this Faith. Our bodies are washed not of dirt, but of a good conscience towards God. Repentence, obedience, reconciliation.
Point 3 you say the gospel saves us. Again this comes from the fallacy of "saved" doctrine. How would the gospel save someone? Im sure you have shared the gospel with many, who chose to ignore and were no more saved then when you or anyone else shared the gospel with them. So where is the logic with your statement that the gospel alone saves?
Pauls job was to reach the gentiles with the Gospel. His plate was full, he helped the kingdom greatly, his job was not to baptize. There were others to handle this. Just as there were others to distribute food and what not. This does not in any way mean that baptism is not necessary.. any doctrine that claims otherwise must line up with scripture. You cannot use one verse if it conflicts with another.
No where does Peter teach us to be circumsized even though at one point that was his carnal position. The scriptures are inspired by the Holy Spirit, so no carnal mind goes into the bible, therefore it all lines up as ONE HOLY SPIRIT inspired.
I illstrated the Peter scripture to show the holes in the doctrine Nehemiah is trying to teach. And I assume you agree with Nehemiah.
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21 And that water is a picture of baptism, which now saves you, not by removing dirt from your body, but as a response to God from a clean conscience. It is effective because of the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
this seems quite clear that bapism is not a part of salvation at all. it does not say be baptized to make the resurrection of Christ in your life effective
quite the opposite
you can be baptized BECAUSE your conscience is clear BECAUSE of Christ's resurrection...ties in with the words 'IN WHOM YOU BELIEVED'
v 21 makes is clear that it is a response to already being saved
based on scripture, it is incorrect to conclude that Peter is saying here that baptism is the response to Christ for salvation
the opposite is actually true
baptism is a response to those already saved
Peter wrote that Christians should live in the world before God, with a good conscience, so that no one could have a true reason to accuse them of anything. public baptism was a way to identify with Christ and thereafter seek to live for Him to fullfill as scriture states, all righteousness and holiness
our righteousness is from Christ alone and holy does not mean be perfect, in Christ before God He sees us that way, but it means to be set apart {from the world} as God is not a part of the world systems and practices and so on
In 1 Peter 3:16, Peter wrote that Christians should live in the world with a good conscience so that nobody can have a valid reason for accusing us of doing anything wrong. The act of being publicly baptized was part of establishing that good conscience with God and before a watching world.
it is ignorance of how to study scripture that leads a person to understand this differently
when a person is baptized, they express their belief in Christ, risen from the dead and illustrate their faith in Him by being baptized in accordance with the true meaning of such an act
I see some here are saying others express the thought that baptism is a take or leave it option.
that is not true and they would do well to acknowldge that and move on instead of continuing to support a lie
just move on. no one has said that people should not be baptized
this seems quite clear that bapism is not a part of salvation at all. it does not say be baptized to make the resurrection of Christ in your life effective
quite the opposite
you can be baptized BECAUSE your conscience is clear BECAUSE of Christ's resurrection...ties in with the words 'IN WHOM YOU BELIEVED'
v 21 makes is clear that it is a response to already being saved
based on scripture, it is incorrect to conclude that Peter is saying here that baptism is the response to Christ for salvation
the opposite is actually true
baptism is a response to those already saved
Peter wrote that Christians should live in the world before God, with a good conscience, so that no one could have a true reason to accuse them of anything. public baptism was a way to identify with Christ and thereafter seek to live for Him to fullfill as scriture states, all righteousness and holiness
our righteousness is from Christ alone and holy does not mean be perfect, in Christ before God He sees us that way, but it means to be set apart {from the world} as God is not a part of the world systems and practices and so on
In 1 Peter 3:16, Peter wrote that Christians should live in the world with a good conscience so that nobody can have a valid reason for accusing us of doing anything wrong. The act of being publicly baptized was part of establishing that good conscience with God and before a watching world.
it is ignorance of how to study scripture that leads a person to understand this differently
when a person is baptized, they express their belief in Christ, risen from the dead and illustrate their faith in Him by being baptized in accordance with the true meaning of such an act
I see some here are saying others express the thought that baptism is a take or leave it option.
that is not true and they would do well to acknowldge that and move on instead of continuing to support a lie
just move on. no one has said that people should not be baptized
The only point you seem to be correct on is the fact of Holy Spirit does not mean the person speaks in tounges.
Paul spoke on this in 1 Corinthians 14 not all speak in tounges. Speaking in tounges is a gift. Acts 2 was what happened in pentecost and all who were there, everyone from every nation heard them speaking in their native tounge.
This was the only point you made that I agree with.
The pentecostals are in great error in this regard. Because they are judging others by saying who can and who cannot enter, using tounges as the grounds/evidence for salvation. That is a grave error. Scripture does not line up with this PLANK.
Paul spoke on this in 1 Corinthians 14 not all speak in tounges. Speaking in tounges is a gift. Acts 2 was what happened in pentecost and all who were there, everyone from every nation heard them speaking in their native tounge.
This was the only point you made that I agree with.
The pentecostals are in great error in this regard. Because they are judging others by saying who can and who cannot enter, using tounges as the grounds/evidence for salvation. That is a grave error. Scripture does not line up with this PLANK.
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