Did Jesus ever tell us that we no longer need to keep the law of Moses?

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Grandpa

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Jun 24, 2011
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The meeting was to discuss what gentiles were to follow. Proselytes. Converts to the faith. These weren't Jews. They weren't under any law at all to have to negotiate out of.

Why put them under any law? I thought when one law is broken that's the same as breaking the whole law and so being placed under any law is *complete* bondage and rejects Christ (galatians), right? So the elders are intentionally causing gentiles to stumble?

And why would leaders, elders of the faith, from whom the followers sought counsel because of a dispute between themselves, have to appease some followers who happened to be pharisees like Paul?
They weren't being put under the entire Yoke of bondage like the Pharisees were trying to put them under.

They picked some common sense things that could possibly settle a giant dispute to appease the Pharisees.

Before the Gentiles were told not to do those things God Himself still felt it was Good to give them the Holy Spirit.

So did the Apostles make a mistake by putting these laws on the Gentile believers? I don't think so.

I don't think it was so harsh to abstain from fornication and not eat meat sacrificed to idols.
 

Yahshua

Senior Member
Sep 22, 2013
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They weren't being put under the entire Yoke of bondage like the Pharisees were trying to put them under.

They picked some common sense things that could possibly settle a giant dispute to appease the Pharisees.

Before the Gentiles were told not to do those things God Himself still felt it was Good to give them the Holy Spirit.

So did the Apostles make a mistake by putting these laws on the Gentile believers? I don't think so.

I don't think it was so harsh to abstain from fornication and not eat meat sacrificed to idols.
I think you're missing the point I'm making. I'm going to reply to your last post here since this one is probably at the heart of the issue discussed in the last one.

Firstly, with respect, what you've shared is conjecture. It's reasonable, but still conjecture. The facts we can prove are that the apostles gave gentiles dietary laws from the law of Moses to follow.

These weren't even the root of contention between Paul and the other pharisees. "Circumcision to be saved" was. But the leaders added dietary laws (and, yes, no fornication).

Now, we've gone back and forth on whether obeying even SOME of the laws that would apply to us today is right or wrong...where you've sided with a few that have said "to even try to obey even some of the laws places one until the complete yoke of the entire law", "working at it by your own understanding" "denying christ".

And you've directly said to me that one can't try to obey any of it because that's the error of lawlessness, even with the Holy Spirit.

But here we have the patriarchs giving gentiles dietary laws to follow (which I 100% agree with you was) AFTER the giving of the Holy Spirit...because the gift of salvation isn't earned by obedience...and you conclude that it was reasonable to give them these laws from Moses, saying the apostles did not make a mistake.



So can you explain to me the difference between my(our) position and the patriarchs' position? Because as far as I see they're exactly the same.
 

NayborBear

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
He will certainly let us know lol. My question was more along the lines of how much sin is enough to cause us to become the person of verse 6.

Heb_6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Oh! Misunderstood your question, I reckon.

The one or ones that commit those sin/s, that Love doesn't cover!

Hebrews 5
12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
 

NayborBear

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
Is that what the Complete Judaizers Version of the bible says?

This is what the real bible says;

Romans 8:5-7
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.


The Carnal Mind is the enemy of God.

Not because it would never work towards trying to be obedient to its own understanding of Gods Law.

It doesn't have the ability to understand or be obedient to Gods Law. But the Carnal Mind surely thinks very highly of itself. It thinks it can be obedient to Gods Law in its own understanding and in its own strength.

In Fact, The Carnal Mind looks down on others for not working at the same things it does.


The Pharisee is a prime example of a person who is carnally minded. They thought they could be righteous by their deeds. They thought because they followed a bunch of agreed upon rules, based on "Gods Law", that made them righteous.

Now we have the New Pharisees that have made up New, Better Rules based upon their New and Better understanding of "Gods Law" and this is what makes them righteous. Not only in their own eyes but in the eyes of other Pharisees.

But where's that verse in Ezekiel that NayborBear posted? It was brilliant... I love it when legalists post scripture...

Ezekiel 13:22 Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life:
Yep?
Having a clock? Not knowing what time it is!

Hebrews 5
13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

Luke 21
12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.
13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony.

tic tic tic tic tic tic tic tic
 

lightbearer

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
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Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Two things to note here.

One, recieving the knowledge of truth does not mean they were converted, it just means they were presented the truth and continued in their sin.

Two, saved ARE NOT under the judgement and indignation of God

Also if you carefully read that whole passage, the context is the Jews rejecting Jesus and the word of truth that were about to be destroyed in AD 70.

Heb 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

That verse comes from Isaiah I believe, and it's talking about AD 70.
Greetings KJV,

I see what you are saying regarding Hebrews 10:26.


But there is an action verb in there regarding "Knowledge of the Truth", and that is the word that precedes the phrase. That word is:

G2983
λαμβάνω
lambanō
Thayer Definition:
1) to take
1a) to take with the hand, lay hold of, any person or thing in order to use it
1a1) to take up a thing to be carried
1a2) to take upon one’s self
1b) to take in order to carry away
1b1) without the notion of violence, i,e to remove, take away
1c) to take what is one’s own, to take to one’s self, to make one’s own
1c1) to claim, procure, for one’s self
1c1a) to associate with one’s self as companion, attendant
1c2) of that which when taken is not let go, to seize, to lay hold of, apprehend
1c3) to take by craft (our catch, used of hunters, fisherman, etc.), to circumvent one by fraud
1c4) to take to one’s self, lay hold upon, take possession of, i.e. to appropriate to one’s self
1c5) catch at, reach after, strive to obtain
1c6) to take a thing due, to collect, gather (tribute)
1d) to take
1d1) to admit, receive
1d2) to receive what is offered
1d3) not to refuse or reject
1d4) to receive a person, give him access to one’s self
1d4a) to regard any one’s power, rank, external circumstances, and on that account to do some injustice or neglect something
1e) to take, to choose, select
1f) to take beginning, to prove anything, to make a trial of, to experience
2) to receive (what is given), to gain, get, obtain, to get back
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: a prolonged form of a primary verb, which is use only as an alternate in certain tenses
Citing in TDNT: 4:5, 495
Total KJV Occurrences: 261

While having a knowledge of and looking it over and considering it, like the "builder that, considers the cost" is one thing, the point of verse 26 is to speak of the one who did all that then laid hold, appropriated, received, etc that Knowledge and hence entered into contract with it. :)

SG
KJV1611 said:
What did I say that wasn’t what scripture said?
For one
"One, recieving the knowledge of truth does not mean they were converted, it just means they were presented the truth and continued in their sin."

And then
"Also if you carefully read that whole passage, the context is the Jews rejecting Jesus and the word of truth that were about to be destroyed in AD 70."
Let's take a look at the context.

But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle (The Veil that is to say, his flesh), not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh ( purge your conscience (our inner man)): How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience (our inner man, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh ) from dead works (sin, acts the cause death. For the wages of sins death) to serve the living God?
(Heb 9:11-14 KJV)

For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect (purge your conscience, our inner man, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh ). For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged (sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh ) should have had no more conscience of sins (sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh) . But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins (sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh ). Wherefore when he (Jesus) cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. Then said I (the writer of Hebrews or us for that Matter), Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; Then said he (Jesus), Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. By the which will we are sanctified (our inner man purged, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh )through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: (purge our conscience, our inner man, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh from dead works, sin, acts the cause death to serve the living God) But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. For by one offering he hath perfected (purge our conscience our inner man, sanctified to the purifying of the flesh from dead works, sin acts the cause death to serve the living God) for ever them that are sanctified. Whereof (BECAUSE this is how they are perfected) the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus (perfected, purge our conscience our inner man, sanctified to the purifying of the flesh from dead works, sin acts the cause death to serve the living God) , By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh ( The true Tabernacle, not made by hands); And having an high priest over the house (Us through the veil that is His flesh, the Body of Christ, the Temple) of God; Let us draw near with a true heart (Perfected, laws in our hearts, and in our minds) in full assurance of faith (boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus), having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience (the old man purged to serve the living God), and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised; ) And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. For (BECAUSE) if we sin wilfully after that we have received (Getting) the knowledge (recognition) of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins....Let us go on unto perfection (sanctified to the purifying of the flesh from dead works, sin acts the cause death to serve the living God); not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works (sin, acts the cause death. For the wages of sins death) , and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this will we do, if God permit. For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened (Illuminated, having received (Got) the knowledge (recognition) of the truth), and have tasted (experienced) of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers (sharers) of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted (experienced) the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, (sin willfully) to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.


(Heb 10:1-26; 6:1-6)
 

lightbearer

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
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The meeting was to discuss what gentiles were to follow. Proselytes. Converts to the faith. These weren't Jews. They weren't under any law at all to have to negotiate out of.

Why put them under any law? I thought when one law is broken that's the same as breaking the whole law and so being placed under any law is *complete* bondage and rejects Christ (galatians), right? So the elders are intentionally causing gentiles to stumble?

And why would leaders, elders of the faith, from whom the followers sought counsel because of a dispute between themselves, have to appease some followers who happened to be pharisees like Paul?
Nice post Yashua!
I always found these text interesting too.

Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. For (BECAUSE) Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach (teach) him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
(Act 15:19-21 KJV)

There are a few things note worthy in verse 21.

Moses (the Book of the Law, Pentateuch) is still preached, taught in the synagogues where the Household of God meet every Sabbath. And because they do meet every Sabbath in the synagogues they, the gentiles will hear Moses (the Book of the Law, Pentateuch) So we will write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. For (BECAUSE) Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach (teach) him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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But here we have the patriarchs giving gentiles dietary laws to follow (which I 100% agree with you was) AFTER the giving of the Holy Spirit...because the gift of salvation isn't earned by obedience...and you conclude that it was reasonable to give them these laws from Moses, saying the apostles did not make a mistake.
is not eating food that had been offered before idols in Moses?
where?
 
May 1, 2019
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Nice post Yashua!
I always found these text interesting too.

Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. For (BECAUSE) Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach (teach) him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
(Act 15:19-21 KJV)

There are a few things note worthy in verse 21.

Moses (the Book of the Law, Pentateuch) is still preached, taught in the synagogues where the Household of God meet every Sabbath. And because they do meet every Sabbath in the synagogues they, the gentiles will hear Moses (the Book of the Law, Pentateuch) So we will write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. For (BECAUSE) Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach (teach) him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

Greetings Lightbearer,

Same here regarding the obvious contradiction. I have considered that they were talking to other cultures who perhaps had cultural customs that were so prominent and so egregious that the apostles felt it necessary to point them out. Knowing the work of the Holy Spirit in their hearts and seeing the obvious regeneration processes was taking place perhaps they were addressing the weightier matters that were creating points of contention between the Jews and the Gentiles to quiet the contentions to the fellowship.

If a converted barbarian came to eat and fellowship with me and hadn't yet recognized that it was unlawful to both Torah and common decency to rip the leg off a live animal and eat it raw within the fellowship I think I would feel compelled to point out the obvious in order to quiet the concerns.

I had a dear brother and his wife, both recent converts who came into a fellowship, and their enthusiasm for Christ and His gospel were so joyous and electric that we were all inspired by them. He would say things like "Awe Hell, I'd do anything for Jesus!" Now, I took no offense to that at all, but it did offend the sensitivities of some who put away all forms of lewd speech. So these things were pointed out to him in a tender and delicate way. He smiled brightly and was happy to comply. Nothing was going to offend that brother!

All that to say there was a certain cultural dynamic at work there I'm sure. That is also not to say that the few Laws being shared as an initial installment were not the entire list, but perhaps the ones that they were being made aware of initially.

I think that the circumcision was another matter altogether. Circumcision was a signifier of another covenant that they were not subject to. In other words, it was not universal as the Torah was.

These are just raw thoughts on the subject. And I'm just waking up so please correct me if I'm off. :)

SG
 
May 1, 2019
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is not eating food that had been offered before idols in Moses?
where?

Greetings PH!,

This is to me a clear inference to the act;

Exo 34:12-15 NASB "Watch yourself that you make no covenant with the inhabitants of the land into which you are going, or it will become a snare in your midst. (13) "But rather, you are to tear down their altars and smash their sacred pillars and cut down their Asherim (14) --for you shall not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God-- (15) otherwise you might make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land and they would play the harlot with their gods and sacrifice to their gods, and someone might invite you to eat of his sacrifice,

SG :)

Quick addition; even if you bought it at a market and were not part of the sacrifice process of od any covenant you might ask is it okay. I default to if it aint an absolute YES then i think I will abstain also ref Rev 2
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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Moses (the Book of the Law, Pentateuch) is still preached, taught in the synagogues where the Household of God meet every Sabbath. And because they do meet every Sabbath in the synagogues they, the gentiles will hear Moses (the Book of the Law, Pentateuch) So we will write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. For (BECAUSE) Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach (teach) him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
why do they need to be told not to eat blood if it is assumed that they already hear 'do not eat blood' preached in every synagogue every sabbath?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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Greetings PH!,

This is to me a clear inference to the act;

Exo 34:12-15 NASB "Watch yourself that you make no covenant with the inhabitants of the land into which you are going, or it will become a snare in your midst. (13) "But rather, you are to tear down their altars and smash their sacred pillars and cut down their Asherim (14) --for you shall not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God-- (15) otherwise you might make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land and they would play the harlot with their gods and sacrifice to their gods, and someone might invite you to eat of his sacrifice,

SG :)
that doesn't say you can't eat anything that has been waved before an altar.

the situation is that the markets were full of vendors who sold meat. most of these were pagans, and much of the meat had been waved before some idol or another.

if this is Exodus 34, then the Gentile church was supposed to be smashing up the marketplace, tearing down all the delis and butcher shops? or is scripture no longer literal?


not eating blood and refraining from sexual immorality are clearly consistent with direct injunctions in Torah.
is not eating strangled things in Torah?
is not eating meat that had been waved before an idol in Torah?


i'm not asking for what's in Talmud. that's what your reply is -- that it is in some interpretation of something that doesn't actually say it.
what is actually in Torah ?
 
May 1, 2019
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that doesn't say you can't eat anything that has been waved before an altar.

the situation is that the markets were full of vendors who sold meat. most of these were pagans, and much of the meat had been waved before some idol or another.

if this is Exodus 34, then the Gentile church was supposed to be smashing up the marketplace, tearing down all the delis and butcher shops? or is scripture no longer literal?


not eating blood and refraining from sexual immorality are clearly consistent with direct injunctions in Torah.
is not eating strangled things in Torah?
is not eating meat that had been waved before an idol in Torah?


i'm not asking for what's in Talmud. that's what your reply is -- that it is in some interpretation of something that doesn't actually say it.
what is actually in Torah ?

Hey, this is just a point of "maybe this isn't a good idea". Personally, I'm focusing on the "maybe" and leaving it alone. The command was to abstain to Known meats that were sacrificed to idols. If you "knew" it was, you were to abstain.

Not sure what the Talmud says on the meats sacrificed to idols. I see clear instructions in Rev 2:14 & 20

Did you miss that one or are you just feelin scrappy?:)

p.s. don't see the command to tear up the markets.
 
May 1, 2019
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why do they need to be told not to eat blood if it is assumed that they already hear 'do not eat blood' preached in every synagogue every sabbath?
Hey PH,

The one thing that everyone is missing is that I am not telling anyone to keep any commandment unless you are in my face intending to do me harm. Even then you wouldn't hear a thing. What you do and do not do is entirely your decision, unless you are again creating a major problem for others. Then it kinda becomes a civil matter, know what I mean?

So hey, if you want to prove a point that its no problem for you and you have the idolotrous priests literally throw the raw bloody meat into your mouth while you sit next to the alter then that is your choice to do if you feel led by the Holy Spirit to do so.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Let's take a look at the context.

But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle (The Veil that is to say, his flesh), not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh ( purge your conscience (our inner man)): How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience (our inner man, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh ) from dead works (sin, acts the cause death. For the wages of sins death) to serve the living God?
(Heb 9:11-14 KJV)

For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect (purge your conscience, our inner man, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh ). For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged (sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh ) should have had no more conscience of sins (sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh) . But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins (sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh ). Wherefore when he (Jesus) cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. Then said I (the writer of Hebrews or us for that Matter), Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; Then said he (Jesus), Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. By the which will we are sanctified (our inner man purged, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh )through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: (purge our conscience, our inner man, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh from dead works, sin, acts the cause death to serve the living God) But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. For by one offering he hath perfected (purge our conscience our inner man, sanctified to the purifying of the flesh from dead works, sin acts the cause death to serve the living God) for ever them that are sanctified. Whereof (BECAUSE this is how they are perfected) the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus (perfected, purge our conscience our inner man, sanctified to the purifying of the flesh from dead works, sin acts the cause death to serve the living God) , By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh ( The true Tabernacle, not made by hands); And having an high priest over the house (Us through the veil that is His flesh, the Body of Christ, the Temple) of God; Let us draw near with a true heart (Perfected, laws in our hearts, and in our minds) in full assurance of faith (boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus), having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience (the old man purged to serve the living God), and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised; ) And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. For (BECAUSE) if we sin wilfully after that we have received (Getting) the knowledge (recognition) of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins....Let us go on unto perfection (sanctified to the purifying of the flesh from dead works, sin acts the cause death to serve the living God); not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works (sin, acts the cause death. For the wages of sins death) , and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this will we do, if God permit. For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened (Illuminated, having received (Got) the knowledge (recognition) of the truth), and have tasted (experienced) of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers (sharers) of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted (experienced) the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, (sin willfully) to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.


(Heb 10:1-26; 6:1-6)
Who are the”we”who do not fall back?
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
why do they need to be told not to eat blood if it is assumed that they already hear 'do not eat blood' preached in every synagogue every sabbath?
Oh here is a point, How many churches I have gone where I here the same message every sinday, Talk about a dead church!
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Did people forget that Paul had to publicly chasten peter because peter refused to eat meat with gentiles?

Did he also not say if you think it is sin, to you it is sin, if you do not. To you it is not. And we shoudl not judge either person. As they do it as unto the lord?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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Hey, this is just a point of "maybe this isn't a good idea". Personally, I'm focusing on the "maybe" and leaving it alone. The command was to abstain to Known meats that were sacrificed to idols. If you "knew" it was, you were to abstain.

Not sure what the Talmud says on the meats sacrificed to idols. I see clear instructions in Rev 2:14 & 20

Did you miss that one or are you just feelin scrappy?:)

p.s. don't see the command to tear up the markets.
  • Someone said the instructions to the Gentiles in Acts 15 are from Moses Law
  • Revelation is not from Moses.
  • I can't find 'don't eat anything that has been waved before an idol' in Torah, or 'don't eat anything that has been strangled'
  • If the rationale is that they were telling the Gentiles they must obey the law of Exodus 34 Exodus 34 doesn't say anything about not eating strangled or waves-in-front-of-idol food. It says literally, Destroy all the idol centers. That's not what the church did or instructed, so I think you are wrong. That is not the rationale here.
  • It is significant that the council gives these specific instructions and refuses to instruct 'keep the law'
  • If these are not things specifically in the law it is wrong to say they are
  • If they are not things in the law then the significance of these things is something entirely different
  • We ought to understand exactly what the significance is, both so were not deceived and so we don't go about preaching deception to others
  • It would be deception to say they are being told to keep Torah.
  • It would be deception to say they are being told to keep the interpretations in the Talmud.
 
Nov 23, 2013
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Oh! Misunderstood your question, I reckon.

The one or ones that commit those sin/s, that Love doesn't cover!

Hebrews 5
12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
We're talking about believers right? To what degree of sinning or sins does the love of God stop? In other words what sins or how many sins can a believer commit before God says alright I'm done with you, you're no longer saved?
 
May 1, 2019
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  • Someone said the instructions to the Gentiles in Acts 15 are from Moses Law
  • Revelation is not from Moses.
  • I can't find 'don't eat anything that has been waved before an idol' in Torah, or 'don't eat anything that has been strangled'
  • If the rationale is that they were telling the Gentiles they must obey the law of Exodus 34 Exodus 34 doesn't say anything about not eating strangled or waves-in-front-of-idol food. It says literally, Destroy all the idol centers. That's not what the church did or instructed, so I think you are wrong. That is not the rationale here.
  • It is significant that the council gives these specific instructions and refuses to instruct 'keep the law'
  • If these are not things specifically in the law it is wrong to say they are
  • If they are not things in the law then the significance of these things is something entirely different
  • We ought to understand exactly what the significance is, both so were not deceived and so we don't go about preaching deception to others
  • It would be deception to say they are being told to keep Torah.
  • It would be deception to say they are being told to keep the interpretations in the Talmud.
Okay.

I would say Revelations is Torah/Instructional

If it has to be spelled out not to eat anything strangled then look for that. If you don't find it in the OT and that is a guide to you then follow that. If an apostle says not to and that is not Torah to you then you must consider whether that apostle is inspired. Even Peter said;

Act 5:29 NASB But Peter and the apostles answered, "We must obey God rather than men.

Did God speak through them? All questions you should have clear answers to.

As far as what the new converts were being told outside what is written is only discernible from the rest of scripture. Again, each and every one of us is responsible for our choices, especially when there is so much to learn from the entire Word of God and through the leading of the Holy Spirit.

If one of the others on this site that held a personal Love for Gods Instructions and adhered to them came to me and told me "YOU MUST KEEP THIS OR THAT" I would first ask why? And if they said in order to earn salvation, I would begin to concern myself if they are becoming legalistic. But if they proclaimed a Joy in the commands of God and their delight in keeping them, well then that is their testimony and there is no law against that!

I say it is a beautiful thing how our Creator has set up His will. If you Murder or steal you will be dealt with by man, if you fornicate you will be dealt with by man or God! On a national level any nation that condones violation of His laws is dealt with on a national level. Many of Gods laws which were, centuries ago, passed by our nations legislature into our national laws for just that reason. Slowly, lawless(torahless) men have pushed to rescind those laws. As more and more laws are rescinded and those sins are practiced nationally, we will find more and more judgements on our nation. These are just the facts.

So as men seek to eliminate all of Gods righteous requirements from fabric that our nation was woven from many of the blessings that came with that decision will be removed and many curses take their place.

You can argue with that if you want, but for me, it is just a statement of fact from observation.
 
May 1, 2019
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We're talking about believers right? To what degree of sinning or sins does the love of God stop? In other words what sins or how many sins can a believer commit before God says alright I'm done with you, you're no longer saved?

Interesting question KJV,

Seems to me not to be a matter of quantity, rather a heart attitude towards sin that would make the call.

Be reminded of the heart attitude of the day you were brought to repentance. Remember how zealous you were to do good works of repentance and righteousness. That can slip, especially if all you think of every day is why you don't have to keep yourself from sinning. Not saying you are just saying the topic can tend towards diluting the dedication of some to becoming more Christlike.

That said addressing the initial zeal and the importance of preserving or returning to it;

Rev 2:5 KJV Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.