The Absence of Free Will

So you believe in the absence of free will correct?

No, God gave mankind a free will to choose as to how man wants to live his life while sojourns here on earth. There are many scriptures where God is instructing us to make a choice. But nowhere does God instruct mankind to save himself eternally because that choice is totally by God's grace, without the help of man.

Only born again people have the spiritual law written in their hearts. Gentiles as well. It would be interesting to see how you would interpret 1 Cor 2:14. Can you humor me and tell me your interpretation?

No, God gave mankind a free will to choose as to how man wants to live his life while sojourns here on earth. There are many scriptures where God is instructing us to make a choice. But nowhere does God instruct mankind to save himself eternally because that choice is totally by God's grace, without the help of man.

But to completely deny free will is illogical at this point.

Well, we really miss it when we focus on ourselves, when we think and judge according to our view or how it all pertains to us.

Just pretend for a moment and try to see EVERYTHING through God’s eyes....

As God, You can create any and every habitat - thus, we have all the various galaxies, solar systems, universes, and all the unseen realm of principalities, spiritual beings, demons, angels, et al.

Any and everything you desire - just speak and it is so.....yet, after having everything you desire, why are you not satisfied?

Because the greatest desire, need and want of LOVE is NOT habitats and things but........

....to love and to be loved.

Here’s God’s dilemma.... love cannot be created.

He can create everything except love - the one and only thing that God truly wants.

So, He creates us in His image and gives us the “capacity” to love and gives us free will because love without a choice is manipulation, not love at all - just a bunch of robots.

So, what role does “free will” and “predestination” play in this scenario....

God offers us two paths - Life and Death. With our free will we get to choose the path, however, the paths are predestined- one ends in Life the other in Death.

God tells us to choose Life but, He leaves the decision up to us.

So those in Heaven will truly love God because they chose to - God will finally have what He has always wanted......us.

That will not deter any dyed-in-the-wool Calvinist. Neither logic, nor common sense, nor Scripture make any difference when you have been brainwashed. That's the sad thing. It is also akin to being bewitched.

Everything you have quoted and said is true, however. God did give man a free choice in determining his eternal destination, that is by God's grace, without the help of man.

I agree. Humans can choose life or death.

Malachi 3:16-18, " 16 Then those who feared the LORD spoke with one another. The LORD paid attention and heard them, and a book of remembrance was written before him of those who feared the LORD and esteemed his name. 17 “They shall be mine, says the LORD of hosts, in the day when I make up my treasured possession, and I will spare them as a man spares his son who serves him. 18 Then once more you shall see the distinction between the righteous and the wicked, between one who serves God and one who does not serve him.

God can foresee what are we going to choose. He already knows who's the sheep. So predestination and free will are completely harmonious:

1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, (…)

If free will was the only means of living our lives God would not have been able to determine who would be saved even before he created the world. Thus I happen to believe in both destiny and free will. The explanation of how this can be is a little long, but here goes. Before God created the universe and the world he had everything planned out and made angels and men/women with every kind of thought pattern that can be used by angels and humans. Some bad and some good. Knowing what patterns he put into certain individuals he also put them in circumstances in which they would react a certain way and continue his plan properly. The person had free will to make his/her decision, but God already knew what it would be. Thus humans are destined to follow a certain path due to the way they think. This allows God to tell us in Proverbs 16:9, 20:24, and Jeremiah 10:23 that he directs our steps and not us, although I see us as having free will.

The greatest and highest form of “servitude” is love. This is what God wants ...us to obey because we love Him.

In your first post you said quote," A very well thought out comment, and I really agree with you on everything you said, only I see it a little bit different."

My post was to explain how libertarian free will best fits reality. You said you agreed with everything I said but your view was a little different.

Then in your above reply you said quote, " ....we are NOT "FREE" at all. We are in fact slaves."

So you can see why it seems contradicting in your statements. I am honestly trying to understand your belief so I dont try to assume your beliefs.

You can quote scripture, I can quote scripture, you can tell me my interpretation is wrong, and I can tell you yours is wrong. And then what progress would we make. I'm just looking at which one best fits reality because God is the author of reality.

I want to know so in your belief we are completely without free will or not just to clarify my confusion in your statements.

And does that mean everyone is predetermined to act as they do?

God written words are not written to people that are not his children already. It is written to his children instructing them as to how he wants them to live their lives while they sojourn here on earth. God has given man a free will to choose good or bad. You are right that our choices, if we are born again. are influenced either by our spiritual nature or our fleshly nature. Many times we choose our fleshly nature which requires repentance in order to regain our fellowship back with God. By choosing bad does not cause us to lose our eternal destination because that was secured on the cross. When we choose bad, we are just disobedient children, and God chastens us to bring us to repentance. God does not chasten those that are not his children, Psalms 73.

For those who believe the absence of free will I must ask how does one define sin and evil? Or how does one define genuine love, is genuine love ever forced? Or how does one view the laws of logic and reason including the law of noncontradiction? How is condemnation justified if God is the source of what makes people act the way they do?



ForestGreenCook has at least a better explanation even though it comes with it's own issues. But to completely deny free will is illogical at this point. It is just as illogical for the atheist just as the Christian to deny it.

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.” – 2 Corinthians 5:10

As seen above no free will makes God not all just as judgment is only a illusion because God was the forcing love and forcing continual hate.

“But if serving the Lord seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord.” – Joshua 24:14-15

Joshua either wasn't as close to God as we are today or he understood we must choose to follow or follow the idols of our lives.

1 Corinthians 7:22 New International Version (NIV)
22 For the one who was a slave when called to faith in the Lord is the Lord’s freed person; similarly, the one who was free when called is Christ’s slave.

Christ's slave ( slave: 1401 doulos)

1401. doulos
Transliteration: doulos
Phonetic Spelling: (doo'-los)
Definition: a slave, bondman, man of servile condition; one who gives himself up wholly to another's will.

One who gives himself up wholly to anothers will.

Bondman/ bondservant: difference in modern slavery and Biblical slavery was the bondservant described under Hebrew laws was more as a indentured servant.

Man of Servile: Having or showing an excessive willingness to serve or please others.

Leviticus 25:39 describes this when it says, “If your brother becomes poor beside you and sells himself to you, you shall not make him serve as a slave: he shall be with you as a hired worker and as a sojourner.”

This is why people like atheist or Sam Harris proclaim that the Bible endorses slavery. But Biblical slavery isnt like antebellum slavery where the person had no choice.