Annihilationists confuse types related to eternal punishment with the reality

Thanks. I got no problem with this kind of annihilationism!

Is this what you believe too @Magenta (what Soulweaver said)

I like it, it has BOTH components, components of torment and punishment, tormented until his debt is paid, as the parable elsewhere says AND it has the destruction, perishing, wages of sin is death and gift of God is eternal life all in ONE.

You made me dance around the house and say Halleluiah! LOL
Yes ALL the Scripture must agree!!! otherwise the understanding will be off... If you have time, please look at the post 66 it's a longer post where I expounded more on harmonizing annihilation and "the smoke of torment rising for ever and ever"... it might need some help but I'm trying to tie it all together

When a parable names someone specifically, and the parable didn’t actually happen, that parable is a lie.

I'm going to step up and support Magenta here (actually everyone). I posted this on another thread to the same OP but since people argued a lot no one noticed it and the OP also ignored it, never giving me feedback after asking me questions and me giving answer. There is a way to make peace between the two views, so the Scriptures agree harmoniously. And no, it is not eternal results ("eternal results" is actually a bad argument). OK. Please be patient to hear me out brothers and sisters,

I wouldn't call myself an "annihilationist". That might imply that I am trampling the Scriptures that talk about eternal punishment, which I don't. I do believe in annihilation as the Scriptures teach, and I also do believe punishment is going on eternally as the Scriptures teach both. I don't believe these two are in opposition, at all. The whole of the Scriptures must be true, and agree harmoniously. I'd call myself a "harmonist" if I had to pick a title. I believe that people who pit Scriptures against Scriptures are wrong. It's like Calvinists and Arminianists, who pit Scripture against Scripture and ignore the other half. As the Bible teaches "elect according to foreknowledge" this shows they are both right and both wrong, as both free will and predestination simultaneously exist as God can foresee who will choose what. I hold annihilation vs eternal torment is yet another Biblical paradox, of exactly the SAME kind.

"Eternal results" isn't a good argument, because the Scripture does say it goes on forever. But this then seems to contradict with the other Scriptures, that suggests destruction, the mortality of the soul, etc. We cannot have discord, it must all agree. This picture then occurred to me as the tree service was cutting a tree next to the house. So I thought, what if it was put into a fire?

"The tree that gives bad fruit" is cut and thrown into the fire. Right?
But if is perpetually burnt without being consumed, would that not make the bad tree like a burning bush?
(please bear with me I promise I'll make it worthwhile in a bit...)
Only God and those with God on the inside are able to burn without being consumed, because they are tried and came up gold and silver. They are filled with Holy Spirit, baptized by fire. Doesn't everything ungodly burn up and perish?
This is just to demonstrate that current understanding doesn't make perfect sense with other things we are taught by the Bible... Now, onto my main proposition:

If the new trees are thrown into the fire and you keep doing it, so the smoke keeps rising on and on, does this have to necessarily mean you are burning the same piece of wood continually? Actually, NO. It could be the process itself which is going on and on, but that first tree had long turned into smoke and perished - the thing is that the new ones are now added to the pile. Accordingly,

Nowhere does the Scripture say that the smoke will be sustained by the same persons burning. The Bible states the same CATEGORY of people (the ungodly) will forever sustain the smoke of torment. Beyond doubt... However, the Scriptures do NOT state that the same INDIVIDUAL PERSONS will be sustaining it for EVER... It ONLY specifies the category of people that is fueling it.

And I know what some of you might be thinking now.
There is a Biblical notion suggesting that existence of our planet is finite, so some might say that God would "run out of wood" at a certain point, so how could that be eternal? But that is a very temporal understanding of "eternal". God is out of space and time. The reason He's eternal is because He's neverchanging. We are limiting God with our concept of eternity, which is somehow also on a timer. A lot of Christians see eternity as if some end times timer expires at 12a.m., and then it's the "end of time" at midnight and eternity then "begins". But this is the same old linear time. Eternity is what has always been there, what is, and always will be, like God. Time has beginnings, endings, befores and afters. Eternity is called what is never changing and always the same, yesterday, today, and tomorrow. The unchanging reality of Truth, which is in God. "Sure, I come quickly". It's not only that days are shorter for God than for us. It's that Jesus literally does come quickly. He comes quickly to our rescue, or to judge the wicked, all the time, every day, without fail! When He says behold I come quickly, He is not joking! "Quickly" REALLY means "quickly"!

If something is a part of God's nature, I would argue that it qualifies as ETERNAL. God "cannot behold evil". Evil is destroyed in His presence. It is God's eternal, timeless nature to always destroy His enemies: past, present, and future. So the punishment will be meted out eternally, yet also annihilating the enemies during the process. Furthermore, Annihilation is commanded by God in words, "you shall utterly destroy them", which is God's unchanging will for all His enemies. He does not give some enemies a special treatment. (The opposite would suggest that God is a respecter of persons.) Therefore...

God always did, does, and will annihilate His enemies, and therefore"the smoke of their torment shall rise for ever and ever"... because God never changes (if He changed, it would cause this smoke to stop rising, but it ever rises).

So this is why I now believe it is totally possible for the torment to go on forever and just like the Scriptures say, and yet annihilate also like the Scriptures suggest. My argument is NEVERCHANGING RESULTS so the results are CONTINUING FOREVER AND EVER, based on God Himself being neverchanging. The fire is not ever being quenched, either, because nothing can deliver any man from His judgments (by quenching the fire).

I honestly believe lot of the confusion Bible wise comes from us being stuck in the human timeframe and our erroneous understanding of "forever and ever" based on this timeframe. Christians are automatically imagining, in their heads, some infinitely long period of time, in which there will be burning for ever and ever (for an infinitely prolonged period of time) "after" time "ends". But "an infinitely long period of time" is not what eternity, aka forever and ever, means. And after "end time", any kind of duration "afterwards" would also be completely nonexistent in that case because if time continues then time didn't end. That would be my second argument. I might not have everything lined up 100% yet, but hey, at least I'm trying to make a more comprehensive picture so help me. We need to stop with one sided views and beating each other down with Scriptures utterly divorced from one another. Well I am posting this, so help me God.

As a concept annihilate comes from the root "nihil"

The etymology suggest the word comes from Latin and emerged in the 1500"s

"nothing" "nihil" ... where do we find this concept in scripture?

I might need your help here...
I am not really sure about "Ex nihilo" if that's what you mean because the Bible tells us the world is made by the Word of God, not exactly out of nothing...

yes only God can create ... ex nihilo....I am just not seeing where this is connected to the after life where something becomes nothing.

If the original word in the Greek or Hebrew is "destroy" that is not the same as annihilate.

In the end only God can annihilate....... annihilate matter, energy, time to make into nothing.

I see no situation where we know God annihilated something in scripture... in the original language not the English word.

Israelites were commanded to "utterly destroy" their enemies. God can for sure do more:
Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
https://biblehub.com/greek/622.htm

Do you think when they destroyed... they destroyed molecules and atoms of their bodies?

People use the word annihilate today as in beyond destruction, like a city that is in ruins, but in its original sense it means to make into nothing....nihil tied to nihilism

We cannot assume destroy means to make into nothing... nothing is "no thing" and actually somewhat incomprehensible to the human brain to grasp

No matter, no energy....nothing, non existent

SEE MORE SYNONYMS FOR annihilation ON THESAURUS.COM
noun
an act or instance of annihilating, or of completely destroying or defeating someone or something: the brutal annihilation of millions of people.
the state of being annihilated; total destruction; extinction: fear of nuclear annihilation.

annihilation
noun
Definition of annihilation
1: the state or fact of being completely destroyed or obliterated : the act of annihilating something or the state of being annihilated

e the word annihilate today as in beyond destruction, like a city that is in ruins, but in its original sense it means to make into nothing....nihil tied to nihilism

obliterate

1. To remove completely, leaving no trace; to wipe out; to destroy.

I looked up obliterate thanks to you as it was listed as synonym to annihilate...
OBLITERATE is a much better term... I really have to share here!!!

Obliterate (v.)
"blot out, cause to disappear, remove all traces of, wipe out," c. 1600, from Latin obliteratus, past participle of obliterare "cause to disappear, blot out (a writing), erase, efface," figuratively "cause to be forgotten, blot out a remembrance," from ob "against" (see ob-) + littera (also litera) "letter, script" (see letter (n.)). The verb was abstracted from the phrase literas scribere "write across letters, strike out letters."

Origin of obliterate
1590–1600; < Latin oblitterātus (past participle of oblitterāre, efface, cause to be forgotten), equivalent to ob- ob- + litter(a) letter1 + -ātus -ate1

Blot out of the Book of Life... I think that could be the answer to your question Sis. It's in this that complete erasure is indicated. I would not be relying on etymology to derive theology from there, but we do have blot out in the Scriptures.

So then you believe God "annihilates" those, as in to make non-existent, destroys all matter and energy of the person at some point after death?

I looked up obliterate thanks to you as it was listed as synonym to annihilate...
OBLITERATE is a much better term... I really have to share here!!!

Obliterate (v.)
"blot out, cause to disappear, remove all traces of, wipe out," c. 1600, from Latin obliteratus, past participle of obliterare "cause to disappear, blot out (a writing), erase, efface," figuratively "cause to be forgotten, blot out a remembrance," from ob "against" (see ob-) + littera (also litera) "letter, script" (see letter (n.)). The verb was abstracted from the phrase literas scribere "write across letters, strike out letters."

Origin of obliterate
1590–1600; < Latin oblitterātus (past participle of oblitterāre, efface, cause to be forgotten), equivalent to ob- ob- + litter(a) letter1 + -ātus -ate1

Blot out of the Book of Life... I think that could be the answer to your question Sis. It's in this that complete erasure is indicated. I would not be relying on etymology to derive theology from there, but we do have blot out in the Scriptures.

God bless you bro. Ima check it out FOR SURE. Always a good time to shout HALLELUJAH. Some folks whine about screaming in church but are QUICK to yell at a ball game!!

@Magenta I see you still online, do you agree with Soulweaver here on this topic? I hope you do! , I know you still love me dont you Magenta? I love you too

Do you agree that death is punishment? Some ridiculously claim it is as nothing, as if death were not much of a punishment at all. Do you agree that life is precious, a gift from God? I believe it is a gift from God. Those who refuse to recognize God to be the author of life do not have more life given to them.

Do you agree that we cannot save ourselves from the human condition we were born into as a result of Adam's sin that caused the fall of humanity and the corruption of all creation, and thus estrangement from God, and a need of Jesus Christ to reconcile us back to God through the sinless life He lived and the death He died on our behalf?

Those are fairly simple questions… I am not sure I understand yours. Do you mean, what is the moral of the story of the rich man and Lazarus? Jesus told the religious leaders Who He was and that all Scripture testified of Him, and that they would die in their sins if they did not believe He was Who He said He was, that if they did not believe Moses they would not believe even if someone were to raise from the dead. Is not our faith put in His sinless incarnation as God in human flesh, His death and resurrection to new life, as a show of God's love toward us? When I read the words "eternal punishment" I do not understand it to mean eternal punishing. Do you see a distinction? Many Christians do not even understand the word hell, that it is a poor translation of at least four different words in Scripture, and they talk of the Lake of Fire as if it were hell, when hell is to be thrown into the Lake of Fire.

Saying unbelievers get what they want if they are destroyed seems a silly reason to reject the idea that the wicked are destroyed, when Scripture affirms in a multitude of ways that the wicked will be destroyed. (Not that you said that, just saying, many do). Who in their right mind wants to die? Scripture attests to the fact that we value our own bodies, our own lives. To face the prospect of eternal, everlasting death after having known life, coming face to face with the One True God Who created all there is and gave us life, knowing their rejection of Him during their life is going to result in their eternal/everlasting punishment of being forever cast out of life... Paul says it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the Living God. Have you experienced that? Can you imagine what that will be like for those who have rejected Him, knowing their fate? Wailing and gnashing of teeth is probably putting it mildly, after all.

I got one more question thats KIND OF related to this topic to you and @SoulWeaver and to EVERYONE really: : When Jesus says the PHARISEES will see people going to the kingdom with Jacob and Isaac and them folks and will gnash their teeth. WHEN can this happen?

I believe they do get blotted out, whatever the Scripture means by that. It seems to mean they will no longer exist. I doubt about matter being destroyed because matter is just a vessel... I believe their souls shall die, as wages for sin, and that their identity (names) will be wiped out so obliteration in that sense. This is unlikely to involve the matter. The matter "returns into dust", the body is destroyed by decomposition, rotting (worm). It's what the Bible seems to suggest.

It is not solely a word but the concept behind the word that is the problem, and destruction and obliterate are not good synonyms for annihilate just like there is no true synonym for the concept of create....only God can create "ex nihilo"


If annihilation was God's punishment for sin, then Christ would have disintegrated on the cross, and His body and soul would have ceased to exist.
The bodily resurrection of Christ must be denied if annihilation is the punishment for sin.
This is why the Jehovah's Witnesses deny the bodily resurrection of Christ.

As well,
If annihilation is the ultimate punishment for sin, then Christ did not make ultimate payment because neither His body nor His soul were annihilated.

It is not solely a word but the concept behind the word that is the problem, and destruction and obliterate are not good synonyms for annihilate just like there is no true synonym for the concept of create....only God can create "ex nihilo"


If annihilation was God's punishment for sin, then Christ would have disintegrated on the cross, and His body and soul would have ceased to exist.
The bodily resurrection of Christ must be denied if annihilation is the punishment for sin.
This is why the Jehovah's Witnesses deny the bodily resurrection of Christ.

As well,
If annihilation is the ultimate punishment for sin, then Christ did not make ultimate payment because neither His body nor His soul were annihilated.