Who is the House of Israel today?

Gen 48:11-20
Gen 48:19 And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations. (a multitude of gentiles - non jews)

These did not become "House of Israel" (also known as Jospeh/Ephraim/Northern Kingdom/Lost Sheep) until after the Kingdom split after King Solomon. After that point, we see numerous references to "the house of Israel and the House of Judah".

In 721/722 BC The House of Israel was taken into captivity by Assyria. They never returned to God and therefore were scattered throughout the world and became known as Gentiles.

Rom_11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

What does the "fulness of the Gentiles be come in" mean? What is the mystery that we are not to be ignorant of?

I have "a" belief or understanding. But I also believe that there is multiple layers to all the scriptures and there is seldom just one understanding. I have found that the scriptures I read last year and had an understanding, that "that understanding" is still correct, but I have a deeper understanding, that is also true. I'll share when opportunity arises in discussion.

Here's part of how I'm seeing it:

--Romans 9:26 / Hosea 1:10-11 [re: Israel/Jews] - "And it shall come to pass, that in the place where IT WAS SAID UNTO THEM, YE are NOT MY PEOPLE; there SHALL THEY be called the children [/sons] of the living God."

is distinct from...

--Romans 9:25 / Hosea 2:23b [re: the Gentiles]


That's just for starters.



[this connects then also to Rom11:2 and what that refers to]

I'm seeing Hosea 1:11 as the two separate Houses, House of Judah and House of Israel. Jesus is that one head who will bring the two houses back together again. This is how I am understanding a multitude of verses that put the story together.

Hos 1:11 Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel. (Jezreel is a play on Israel and yes wont that be a glorious day when Jesus is King over all the world, House of Judah and House of Israel once again reunited as they were during King David and King Solomon?

Rom 9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

God said He divorced the House of Israel. Thus, in Hosea they are no longer called "My People".

Jer_3:8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

Can you see the mention of the two Houses here in this Jeremiah verse above?

Jeremiah seems to be puzzled how the LORD can have His divorced wife back again when it goes against the LORD's own Law.

Jer 3:1 They say, If a man put away his wife, and she go from him, and become another man's, shall he return unto her again? shall not that land be greatly polluted? but thou hast played the harlot with many lovers; yet return again to me, saith the LORD.

That Law is Deuteronomy 24:1-4. And I believe Paul was given understanding of this mystery and why Jesus said "
Mat_10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Mat_15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

And later Jesus gave the Caanite woman permission to eat bread crumbs from the master's table.
Mat_15:27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.
Mar_7:28 And she answered and said unto him, Yes, Lord: yet the dogs under the table eat of the children's crumbs.

But here is Paul quoting the Deuteronomy 24:1-4 scripture.

Rom 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

Rom 7:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.

Rom 7:3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.


Deu 24:1 When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house.
Deu 24:2 And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man's wife.
Deu 24:3 And if the latter husband hate her, and write her a bill of divorcement, and giveth it in her hand, and sendeth her out of his house; or if the latter husband die, which took her to be his wife;
Deu 24:4 Her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that is abomination before the LORD: and thou shalt not cause the land to sin, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.

Jesus is "God with us". Jesus is the Word and the Word became flesh. God could not break His own law, so He had to die and resurrect in order to bring back "the house of Israel" whom He divorced and promised in many of the scriptures that He would take her back again. Thus a New Covenant had to be made because God found fault with the people after they said the marriage vows (First Covenant) at Mount Sinai and then finally gave them up for a time. House of Israel was taken into captivity in 721/722 BC and unlike the House of Judah who was taken into captivity for 70 years by the Babylonians, and then returned to the land, but the House of Israel never came home, instead they are scattered to the four corners of the earth.

Ex.19:1-4
Exo 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
Exo 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel. (all 12 tribes).
Exo 19:7 And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the LORD commanded him.
Exo 19:8 And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.

Jeremia 31:31-33 and Hebrews 8:8-11

Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

So where do the non-house of Israel and non-house of Judah people come into the kingdom? I'll save that one for later.

All who believe God are the Israel of eternity. By translation all who praise God are true Jews…...

1. The *mystery* that many Christians were ignorant of (and are still ignorant of) was the fact that God had temporarily blinded unbelieving Jews to the Gospel because of their unbelief, thereby opening to door of salvation to the Church, so that eventually the Church (which was originally Jewish exclusively) would become predominantly Gentile.

2. The additional part of the *mystery* was that AFTER the full complement of Gentiles had been received into the Church, the Church as a separate entity would be complete and therefore raptured to Heaven and to the New Jerusalem. This is not stated in Romans 11 but there are other Scriptures to support this

3. The final part of the *mystery* was that following the Second Coming of Christ "all Israel shall be saved". Which is to be interpreted in view of all the other Scriptures regarding Israel (all the Jews living on earth at that time) immediately before and after the Second Coming. "All Israel" probably means every tribe of the House of Israel (which includes those of the former kingdoms of Judah and Israel). But only one-third of the total number of Jews will actually be saved. So this addresses your question about "the house of Israel".

Simply because Ten Tribes were obliterated after the Assyrian captivity does not mean that they were obliterated in the sight of God. Therefore every tribe will be revived and re-settled in the land of Greater Israel (between the Nile and the Euphrates). And the 144,000 redeemed Jews are a microcosm of Israel, to show that redeemed Israel is a separate entity from the Church.

Replacement Theology seeks to wipe Israel off the books, but the Bible does not. The Abrahamic Covenant will be fulfilled as regards Israel (the twelve tribes). Christians (in general) may find all this hard to swallow, but the Bible is our final authority and all of this is to be found in Scripture.

It's a mystery that dispensationalists can believe they can pull the wool over about what the mystery is, and not what they claim the mystery is, rather WAS.

Paul tells us exactly what the mystery was:

(Eph 3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

(Eph 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit)

(Eph 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel)

(Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ).

The Chldren of Israel, while they were in the wilderness, were disobedient, and by their disobedience, salvation was gained by the nations.

Rom 11: 25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own [f]opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be [g]saved, as it is written:
“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.

All that in the OT about kingdom of Israel and kingdom of Judah beefing is GONE. Neither one of those kingdoms exist today.

In the NT, the Israel talked about is the israelites and jews and them folks hanging around in Judea and the scattered tribes (James 1:1).

In the Kingdom when Jesus returns ONE OF THESE DAYS, all the tribes will be back in the land united, and everyone will know WHO is WHO!

God did not promise there would always be a remnant unless h had a plan to reator those kingdoms.

If he is done, and as you say, they are no more, then their is no need to keep a remnant,

DEUT.4 [27] And THE LORD SHALL SCATTER YOU AMONG THE NATIONS, AND YE SHALL BE LEFT FEW IN NUMBER AMONG THE HEATHEN, whither the LORD shall lead you.[28] And there ye shall serve gods, the work of men's hands, wood and stone, which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell.[29] But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.[30] WHEN THOU ART IN TRIBULATION, AND ALL THESE THINGS ARE COME UPON THEE, EVEN IN THE LATTER DAYS, if thou turn to the LORD thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice;[31] (For the LORD thy God is a merciful God he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them.

In short this scripture says it all. The Lord scatters the 10 {lost}tribes of the children of Israel amoung the gentiles for being disobedient. In the latter days the remnant of those scattered tribes will be gathered.

MATT.15 [22] And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.[23] But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.[24] But he answered and said, I AM NOT SENT BUT UNTO THE LOST SHEEP of the house of Israel.

I would agree multiple layers it would seem are needed for another kind of understanding added to the literal, as the living abiding word that works in us the gospel. Walking by faith., using the things seen the temporal to give us his rest according to his inside not seen

2 Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

The fullness of the gentiles includes the outward Jew according to the flesh . Israel, the new word he used to describe His bride previously nopt married called Jacob (a deceiver without God working with him). Israel is used to represent those born again of any nation.

Its never about the corrupted flesh and blood of any nation The wrath of God, (You shall surely die) in regard to the wage of sin is being revealed from heaven .(Romans 1:18.) . a dying creation. Death as in dying the greatest tribulation.

Corrupted Jewish flesh provides nothing. It is His Spirit that converts the soul of man the flesh profits for nothing witnessed by Peter.

John 6: 63-68 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

The faithless Jewish disciples walked away in unbeleif. They stand in the same place as any other gentile nation. The refomation came almost two thousand years agao.

No such thing as lost tribes. The DNA samples are not available.

The twelve without the tribe of Dan fulfilled its purpose to be used in a parable in Revelation 21. Used to represent gates of the city coming down prepared as the wife of Christ. Called by her new name the father named in Acts Christian .A befitting name ...literally meaning "Residents of that city named after the bride's founder and deliverer. . Christ" .

The same with the apostles on this side of the reformation. . .a remnant of 12 set aside for that description in of the one bride in Revelation, as walls or pillars of the same city as the bride of Christ .

leaving out Judas who like the tribe of Dan (Jehovah is Judge) Both were used to represent the justice of the law as to the letter. It kills described as falling backward , or fall back or turned backward. Slain by the letter of the law.

Genesis 49:16 Dan shall judge his people, as one of the tribes of Israel.Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adder in the path, that biteth the horse heels, so that his rider shall fall backward.

John 18:5-7 King James Version (KJV)They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them. As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground. Then asked he them again, Whom seek ye? And they said, Jesus of Nazareth.

It would sem to be used that way through to represent those who refuse to hear prophecy . .the word of God

Psalm 70:2 Let them be ashamed and confounded that seek after my soul: let them be turned backward, and put to confusion, that desire my hurt.

Isaiah 28:13 But the word of the Lord was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

Romans 9:6- Not as though the word of God hath none effect, for they are not all Israel, which are of Israel, and following verses explains that Jacob was chosen that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him who calleth. Gen 32:28, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel. From that time on in the scriptures when they talk about Israel, most of the time it has reference to Jacob, who is representative of God's elect. That is why Jesus instructed his Apostles to go and preach to the LOST SHEEP (God's elect) of the house of Israel (Jacob). Most of God's elect people are lost, not eternally, but to a lack of knowledge of what Jesus accomplished by his death on the cross. Romans 10 Paul explains it by saying some people of Israel (Jacob) have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge and were going about to establish there own righteousness by their works.

Some very good points. However the prophecies of scripture should back up any claims we make. i'll try to come back w/scriptures. Right now preparing for possible flooding in my apartment. I have about 10 feet between water and my front door. Rain non stop for next ten days here in southeast texas.

In view of all of your posts, above, I'm unsure what Paul could have meant in the following verses:

"6 And now I stand being judged for the hope of the promise having been made by God to our fathers, 7 to which our twelve tribes hope to attain, serving in earnestness night and day, the hope concerning which I am accused by the Jews, O king." Acts 26:6-7

....and what Jesus could have meant in Luke 22:30,16,18 [parallel Matt19:28 (comp. its TIMING with Matt25:31-34, 2nd Coming to the earth)], where He'd said:

"so that you may eat and may drink at My table in My kingdom, and may sit on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."

...and what John, in the Revelation, said in chpt 7:

"144,000 of all the tribes of the children of Israel [12,000 from each of the tribes listed there]" vv.4-8 (which I believe to be "future," that is, DURING the future tribulation period / 70th Wk [7-yrs]).

How are you viewing passages such as these? ^ (not to mention other ones I see as pertaining to Israel's FUTURE, such as Daniel 12:1-4 [LIKENED to a resurrection], Ezekiel 37:12-14,20-23 [LIKENED to a resurrection], Romans 11:15 [LIKENED to a resurrection], Isaiah 26:16-21, Hosea 5:15-6:3 [also LIKENED to a resurrection, of sorts], John 6:39 [distinct from v.40!], and Micah 5:3 [distinct from v.2 about Jesus' own birth]... etc)


Do others (participating in this thread) think these passages just mean "Gentiles"? (and that there is no "contrast" in Rom11 going on, about "the Gentiles" and "Israel" [nations (plural) and nation (singular)] in that context?)