Not By Works

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
KJV1611

KJV1611

Banned
#108,901
Nov 23, 2013
13,684
1,212
113
#108,901
If DC treated people decently none of this would have ever came up. I would’ve never brought up the thing about the babies had DC not accused works salvation people of (I wonder if I can say rhis without being accused of misrepresenting dc) of teaching heretical views or whatever rude comment he made about them.

That is the ONLY reason I brought that up.
 
M

Macabeus

Banned
#108,902
Dec 27, 2018
4,170
876
113
#108,902
UnderGrace said:
Listen Mr. KJV.... you are paraphrasing @dcontroversal words, cannot you not see how that is a problem?
It sounds very intentional that you are changing the meaning.

I am going to go back and read that thread..until then please sit quietly... that is the teacher in me talking!!
Click to expand...
Ok. Jesus OFFERED Himself to God. And DC said that Jesus offered the slaughtered innocents along with Himself as a wave offering to God

I know what DC meant, but I can understand how it might be misunderstood

So why report a misunderstanding? I thought reporting was for clear infractions, like telling someone to go visit a psychiatrist or something like that. (Literally has been said here)👎
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
#108,903
#108,903
KJV1611 said:
If DC treated people decently none of this would have ever came up. I would’ve never brought up the thing about the babies had DC not accused works salvation people of (I wonder if I can say rhis without being accused of misrepresenting dc) of teaching heretical views or whatever rude comment he made about them.

That is the ONLY reason I brought that up.
Click to expand...
I do not want to state this with out him being flagged @dcontroversal ...

All I can say is this... he and I have clashed a few times, I never really took it personal it was always

about him defending his stance, so even though the words seemed personal they really were not... it always centered on a doctrine or belief.
 
dcontroversal

dcontroversal

Banned
#108,905
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,395
113
#108,905
CherieR said:
@dcontroversal, what is the harmony between salvation being not by works(Ephesians 2:9) but also passages such as Galatians 5:19-21, 1 Corinthians 6:9-11, and Revelation 21:8?
Click to expand...
As I have said numerous times...

a. A person is saved eternally by grace through faith with no strings attached

b. Anything beyond salvation is the direct result of the faith and salvation ONE already eternally possesses

c. Works do not top off, finish, embellish salvation

d. JESUS is the ROOT AND BEARS THE FRUIT IN US WHICH WE BUT BEAR as a living sacrifice

e. Believers have works of every flavor and or in accordance with maturity

f. ALL believes have worked the works of the HEAVENLY FATHER IN BELIEF

g. And the kicker which some cannot or will not embrace....To the one who works NOT, but Believes.....HIS FAITH IS CREDITED AS RIGHTEOUSNESS

h. And.....another truth argued...SOME MAY TAKE YEARS TO PRODUCE BASED UPON THE LEVEL OF TEACHING AND OR APPLICATION OF THE WORD.....
 
S

Shekinahglory

Active member
#108,906
Aug 29, 2019
157
62
28
#108,906
KJV1611 said:
What do you think the place of torment was that the rich man was in?
Jesus went there also.
Click to expand...
The Abyss. We are told that he’ll was made for Satan and his angels. Satan, anti-Christ and the false prophet are the only ones in the lake until the GWTJ. Then the Ancient Of Days takes His place in court and after the trial those not written in the Book off Life are cast into the lake and it is sealed
 
M

Macabeus

Banned
#108,907
Dec 27, 2018
4,170
876
113
#108,907
dcontroversal said:
As I have said numerous times...

a. A person is saved eternally by grace through faith with no strings attached

b. Anything beyond salvation is the direct result of the faith and salvation ONE already eternally possesses

c. Works do not top off, finish, embellish salvation

d. JESUS is the ROOT AND BEARS THE FRUIT IN US WHICH WE BUT BEAR as a living sacrifice

e. Believers have works of every flavor and or in accordance with maturity

f. ALL believes have worked the works of the HEAVENLY FATHER IN BELIEF

g. And the kicker which some cannot or will not embrace....To the one who works NOT, but Believes.....HIS FAITH IS CREDITED AS RIGHTEOUSNESS

h. And.....another truth argued...SOME MAY TAKE YEARS TO PRODUCE BASED UPON THE LEVEL OF TEACHING AND OR APPLICATION OF THE WORD.....
Click to expand...
Well, since YOU brought it up...Sorry DC. I hate to remind you but you did NOT say it MAY take years. You did not add the word “May” until days or weeks later

My point of contention was it does not NECESSARILY take years.

I can pull up the posts again if you want

And I don’t know anyone here that does not believe Romans 4. That is your favorite strawman, claiming that people don’t believe that
 
M

Macabeus

Banned
#108,908
Dec 27, 2018
4,170
876
113
#108,908
dcontroversal said:
By the way...did you see the above post and HOW this whole deal got started....If I remember right it started with junior taking exception to me saying that a period of growth and maturity is required before one bears fruit........anyway......NO longer care what HE has to say....I am still looking for Tomatoes, Apple trees, Black Berry plants and Strawberry plants that INSTANTLY produce.........do you know where I can buy some?
Click to expand...
Since YOU opened the can of worms yourself, I will ask you this...

Where is the word "MAY" in the red? Why did you add the word "MAY" after the fact?

You did not say "it MAY take a period of growth and maturity". You said it is REQUIRED. Then you change it to it may require.

Anyone who has an elementary grasp of engish can tell the difference between "something is required" and "something MAY BE required". I would hope.

This is the thing about your posts. You say one thing, and when challenged, you claim you said something else.
 
CherieR

CherieR

Senior Member
#108,909
May 6, 2017
2,266
1,420
113
#108,909
dcontroversal said:
As I have said numerous times...

a. A person is saved eternally by grace through faith with no strings attached

b. Anything beyond salvation is the direct result of the faith and salvation ONE already eternally possesses

c. Works do not top off, finish, embellish salvation

d. JESUS is the ROOT AND BEARS THE FRUIT IN US WHICH WE BUT BEAR as a living sacrifice

e. Believers have works of every flavor and or in accordance with maturity

f. ALL believes have worked the works of the HEAVENLY FATHER IN BELIEF

g. And the kicker which some cannot or will not embrace....To the one who works NOT, but Believes.....HIS FAITH IS CREDITED AS RIGHTEOUSNESS

h. And.....another truth argued...SOME MAY TAKE YEARS TO PRODUCE BASED UPON THE LEVEL OF TEACHING AND OR APPLICATION OF THE WORD.....
Click to expand...
I have not been following the thread all the way so perhaps I missed it where you went through these points. I love the way you made these points into a list with spaces in between by the way. 🙂
 
M

Macabeus

Banned
#108,910
Dec 27, 2018
4,170
876
113
#108,910
CherieR said:
I have not been following the thread all the way so perhaps I missed it where you went through these points. I love the way you made these points into a list with spaces in between by the way. 🙂
Click to expand...
Point G is a strawman. I can't think of anyone who does not embrace Romans 4:4 here. unless you think Romans 4:4 means you were not justified if you ever do good works AFTER you're saved. I would not agree with that interpretation, if that's what DC means. Otherwise, it is a strawman argument

Point H. NO one ever denied, because in the original quote, DC did not say it may take years. The word "may" was not added until probably days or weeks after he and I argued about his "a period of growth and maturity IS REQUIRED before a believer can bear ANYTHING. That is what he said, and I said "NOT NECESSARILY", which means in some cases, YES, but not in all cases.

GB9, Eternally grateful, and DC turned my statement that it is not NECESSARILY required into an enormous strawman that I was teaching insta-fruit. :ROFL:

Thanks for bringing it up, DC
 
M

Macabeus

Banned
#108,911
Dec 27, 2018
4,170
876
113
#108,911
dcontroversal said:
So what.......you have still proved nothing except in your mind.......and I will say it again.....

1. A person can be saved for years without bearing fruit....<--the bible and nature teaches this truth
2. At what point does one stop being a son by birth...NEVER
3. Works are the result of the gift of faith and salvation....<----a period of growth and maturity is required before one bears anything

Get your facts straight...you are looking like a fool......
Click to expand...
ORIGINAL disputed post. WHERE IS THE WORD MAY in the red portion?
 
M

Macabeus

Banned
#108,912
Dec 27, 2018
4,170
876
113
#108,912
Since YOU brought it up DC. Good stuff for @gb9 too...

What DC said THEN!!!!

dcontroversal said:
PARTIAL QUOTE--a period of growth and maturity is required before one bears anything

Get your facts straight...you are looking like a fool......
Click to expand...
Anyone see a critical difference

ORIGINAL disputed post. WHERE IS THE WORD "MAY" in the red portion?




What DC said NOW

dcontroversal said:
Partial quote

h. And.....another truth argued...SOME MAY TAKE YEARS TO PRODUCE BASED UPON THE LEVEL OF TEACHING AND OR APPLICATION OF THE WORD.....
Click to expand...



Anyone see a critical difference

ORIGINAL disputed post. WHERE IS THE WORD "MAY" in the red portion?

:LOL:
 
CherieR

CherieR

Senior Member
#108,913
May 6, 2017
2,266
1,420
113
#108,913
Macabeus said:
Point G is a strawman. I can't think of anyone who does not embrace Romans 4:4 here. unless you think Romans 4:4 means you were not justified if you ever do good works AFTER you're saved. I would not agree with that interpretation, if that's what DC means. Otherwise, it is a strawman argument

Point H. NO one ever denied, because in the original quote, DC did not say it may take years. The word "may" was not added until probably days or weeks after he and I argued about his "a period of growth and maturity IS REQUIRED before a believer can bear ANYTHING. That is what he said, and I said "NOT NECESSARILY", which means in some cases, YES, but not in all cases.

GB9, Eternally grateful, and DC turned my statement that it is not NECESSARILY required into an enormous strawman that I was teaching insta-fruit. :ROFL:

Thanks for bringing it up, DC
Click to expand...
Points g and h sound fine to me and make a good finish. I like points "a" and " d ".

I think it is pointless now though to bring up these past posts. It only encourages division in my opinion.
 
M

Macabeus

Banned
#108,914
Dec 27, 2018
4,170
876
113
#108,914
CherieR said:
Points g and h sound fine to me and make a good finish. I like points "a" and " d ".

I think it is pointless now though to bring up these past posts. It only encourages division in my opinion.
Click to expand...
I'll be sure to tell DC. He's the one that brought up the things up that he imagines I disagreed with after several months. I didn't bring it up, he did. :) He is the one who brought up some imaginary disagreement I had with his strawmen.

Posts g and h are fine, except no one denied them. DC claims people denied them. I'd like to know who?
 
J

jacob_g

Active member
#108,915
Sep 1, 2019
346
160
43
#108,915
People are not going to like this... but whatever....
To call on the name of the Lord... call is a verb....
Believe in his heart... believe is a verb....
A verb is an action...

Why doe this not satisfy both arguments? Is there some kind of magical list "of works" that has to be done to count as works...
when we call on Jesus "save me".... is He not quick enough to respond!?!
 
M

Macabeus

Banned
#108,916
Dec 27, 2018
4,170
876
113
#108,916
CherieR said:
Points g and h sound fine to me and make a good finish. I like points "a" and " d ".

I think it is pointless now though to bring up these past posts. It only encourages division in my opinion.
Click to expand...
Post was edited.

I'll be sure to tell DC. He's the one that brought up the things up that he imagines I disagreed with after several months. I didn't bring it up, he did. :) He is the one who brought up some imaginary disagreement I had with his strawmen.

Posts g and h are fine, except no one denied them. DC claims people denied them. I'd like to know who?
 
M

Macabeus

Banned
#108,917
Dec 27, 2018
4,170
876
113
#108,917
dcontroversal said:
g. And the kicker which some cannot or will not embrace....To the one who works NOT, but Believes.....HIS FAITH IS CREDITED AS RIGHTEOUSNESS

h. And.....another truth argued...SOME MAY TAKE YEARS TO PRODUCE BASED UPON THE LEVEL OF TEACHING AND OR APPLICATION OF THE WORD.....
Click to expand...
POINT G .



IS A RED HERRING BECAUSE IT IGNORES and DISTRACTS FROM WHAT IS ACTUALLY BEING SAID. In this case, distracting from what certain people said by accusing them of denying what they did not deny.


POINT h.



Strawman- Misrepresenting someone's argument to make it easier to refute.
 
VCO

VCO

Senior Member
#108,919
Oct 14, 2013
11,972
4,587
113
#108,919
KJV1611 said:
Have it your way lol.
John MacArthur also says that Christians can take the mark of the beast and still go to heaven. SMH
Click to expand...
You Misunderstood that Hypothetical question. He is a PRE-TRIBULATION believer and TEACHER. Christians will be in Heaven before the Mark of the Beast it implemented. SECOND ERROR on your part is, The Tribulation Saints have to be WORSHIPING THE BEAST and it's image, not just receiving the mark.


Revelation 19:20 (ISV)
20 The beast was captured, along with the false prophet who had performed signs on its behalf. By these signs the false prophet had deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. Both of them were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.

Revelation 14:11 (ASV)
11 and the smoke of their torment goeth up for ever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, they that worship the beast and his image, and whoso receiveth the mark of his name.

Revelation 16:2 (ASV)
2 And the first went, and poured out his bowl into the earth; and it became a noisome and grievous sore upon the men that had the mark of the beast, and that worshipped his image.
 
M

Macabeus

Banned
#108,920
Dec 27, 2018
4,170
876
113
#108,920
VCO said:
You Misunderstood that Hypothetical question. He it a PRE-TRIBULATION believer and TEACHER. Christians will be in Heaven before the Mark of the Beast it implemented. SECOND ERROR on your part is, They have to be WORSHIPING THE BEAST and it's image, not just receiving the mark.


Revelation 19:20 (ISV)
20 The beast was captured, along with the false prophet who had performed signs on its behalf. By these signs the false prophet had deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. Both of them were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.

Revelation 14:11 (ASV)
11 and the smoke of their torment goeth up for ever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, they that worship the beast and his image, and whoso receiveth the mark of his name.

Revelation 16:2 (ASV)
2 And the first went, and poured out his bowl into the earth; and it became a noisome and grievous sore upon the men that had the mark of the beast, and that worshipped his image.
Click to expand...
So you have "flesh will not see corruption" and "soul not left in Hades" basically meaning the SAME thing, but receiving the mark of the beast and worshipping him as two DIFFERENT THINGS?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.