Not By Works

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TooFastTurtle

TooFastTurtle

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dcontroversal said:
Sure there is a blend.......and numerous books cover these false gospels with no power to save....Galatians being one of them.......maybe read chapter one and verse seven.......they were peddling a gospel of a DIFFERENT KIND which was double cursed, had no power and those that believe it are fools and bewitched.......

FAITH PLUS FOR salvation = hell
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I agree. Praise God we have no churches preaching works salvation. I dont consider the hebrew roots movement to be Christian, they are the only ones who preach works of the law for salvation. Paul is not talking about faith or obedience to God or repentance, he himself preaches those things, we see this in the book of Acts and Romans 6 among other places. Paul is talking about the judaizers who are trying to make the new gentile converts to be basically judaism followers. That is the historical context.

That same book of Galatians does a number on the once saved always saved teaching though, not sure you should recommend it? ;)
Galatians 5:19-21 and Galatians 5:4 dont match that well with OSAS.

I have seen people who are born again in prison and they just picked up the Bible and read it, a similar story of a man in South Korea, and in all cases people come out believing exactly as most Christians have throughout history. OSAS is only embraced after they have been taught and shown verses here and there, which is why I always say, to debunk OSAS the best thing to do is look up all their proof-texts and keep reading, eventually you will hit that roadblock where you notice that okay I see it.

I know that odds are you will not be changing your stance, no matter the evidence, I am responding more so for the sake of the people who might be reading this and have ears to hear
 
TooFastTurtle

TooFastTurtle

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Does anyone know what the moderators of this Chat believe? I noticed there is a thread about hyper-grace in the Bible discussion forum and the moderators are not for it.

Is there a Statement of Faith to be found somewhere?
 
dcontroversal

dcontroversal

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TooFastTurtle said:
I agree. Praise God we have no churches preaching works salvation. I dont consider the hebrew roots movement to be Christian, they are the only ones who preach works of the law for salvation. Paul is not talking about faith or obedience to God or repentance, he himself preaches those things, we see this in the book of Acts and Romans 6 among other places. Paul is talking about the judaizers who are trying to make the new gentile converts to be basically judaism followers. That is the historical context.

That same book of Galatians does a number on the once saved always saved teaching though, not sure you should recommend it? ;)
Galatians 5:19-21 and Galatians 5:4 dont match that well with OSAS.

I have seen people who are born again in prison and they just picked up the Bible and read it, a similar story of a man in South Korea, and in all cases people come out believing exactly as most Christians have throughout history. OSAS is only embraced after they have been taught and shown verses here and there, which is why I always say, to debunk OSAS the best thing to do is look up all their proof-texts and keep reading, eventually you will hit that roadblock where you notice that okay I see it.

I know that odds are you will not be changing your stance, no matter the evidence, I am responding more so for the sake of the people who might be reading this and have ears to hear
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I can tell you that there are no verses in context that teach a losable salvation......NONE......and to hold that position there is a plethora of verses IN context that must be denied, swept under the table and or rejected...........the "fall from grace" statements are applied to those who willingly place themselves back under a position of some law keeping drivel to maintain that which is eternally given in Christ.....it is not saying that they lost their salvation, but rather saying that they have fallen from a position of GRACE to an inferior position of LAW in stance alone....and NO experience you cite will trump the word of GOD on the issue man....
 
TooFastTurtle

TooFastTurtle

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dcontroversal said:
I can tell you that there are no verses in context that teach a losable salvation......NONE......and to hold that position there is a plethora of verses IN context that must be denied, swept under the table and or rejected...........the "fall from grace" statements are applied to those who willingly place themselves back under a position of some law keeping drivel to maintain that which is eternally given in Christ.....it is not saying that they lost their salvation, but rather saying that they have fallen from a position of GRACE to an inferior position of LAW in stance alone....and NO experience you cite will trump the word of GOD on the issue man....
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I appreciate you taking the time to try to explain what the verses mean in your belief system.

But to be "severed from Christ" as the verse states, necessitates you must be in Christ first to be severed from Him. Otherwise you were already severed from Him. These were people who were Christians and returned to judaism, to their own demise

I make the opposite point, that there are no verses that teach OSAS in context, as I mentioned when you look around all the proof-texts in context they quickly fall apart.

I find it remarkable people can see the Bible through such a different lense, but that is us humans, we see and view things differently.

One thing you and I can agree on I believe, is that we both are saying dont just listen to what we are saying or anyone is saying, go look it up in the Bible for yourself, pray about it and see what conclusion you come to. Amen?
 
dcontroversal

dcontroversal

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It does not men to be lost or lose salvation.....It means to become ineffectual....WHY.....because their MESSAGE NO LONGER has POWER due to the CORRUPTION of the MESSAGE.........

You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

katargeó: to render inoperative, abolish
Original Word: καταργέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: katargeó
Phonetic Spelling: (kat-arg-eh'-o)
Definition: to render inoperative, abolish
Usage: (a) I make idle (inactive), make of no effect, annul, abolish, bring to naught, (b) I discharge, sever, separate from.
 
Melach

Melach

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i believe what you teach of salvation has no effect on behavior i say that with proof

look at roman catholicism they believe you can do mortal sin and go to hell very easily. but look at their fruit its evil always coming out from news.
look at free grace movement they believe nothing you can do to lose salvation, but look at their fruit its evil as well.

there is no man that doeth good no not one. and in this times if you are even normal sinner you look righteous in comparison. if people want to live evil they will no matter what kind salvation they teach
 
dcontroversal

dcontroversal

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Melach said:
i believe what you teach of salvation has no effect on behavior i say that with proof

look at roman catholicism they believe you can do mortal sin and go to hell very easily. but look at their fruit its evil always coming out from news.
look at free grace movement they believe nothing you can do to lose salvation, but look at their fruit its evil as well.

there is no man that doeth good no not one. and in this times if you are even normal sinner you look righteous in comparison.
Click to expand...
What many cannot grasp is the simple truth that SIN is not the issue.....FAITH is the issue.....SIN has been death with at the cross....My bible states clearly that he paid for the SINS of the WHOLE world and when he said IT IS FINISHED...that comes from a LEGAL accounting term which = PAID IN FULL...........

The bible also states that ONE born from above DOES NOT SIN, YET JOHN states that if we say that we have no sin we are deceived and the truth is NOT IN US...so HOW do we reconcile that......both JESUS, PAUL and JOHN cover this issue......

The born again SPIRIT (which does not sin) is still BOUND in a body of SIN that has yet to be changed
THE MIND is the battle ground for control
The greater the transformation the LESS WE SIN in the FLESH
A child of GOD will not LIVE a continual lifestyle of SIN

THE spirit is indeed WILLING, BUT the FLESH IS WEAK!!!!!
 
Lightskin

Lightskin

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TooFastTurtle said:
I agree. Praise God we have no churches preaching works salvation. I dont consider the hebrew roots movement to be Christian, they are the only ones who preach works of the law for salvation. Paul is not talking about faith or obedience to God or repentance, he himself preaches those things, we see this in the book of Acts and Romans 6 among other places. Paul is talking about the judaizers who are trying to make the new gentile converts to be basically judaism followers. That is the historical context.

That same book of Galatians does a number on the once saved always saved teaching though, not sure you should recommend it? ;)
Galatians 5:19-21 and Galatians 5:4 dont match that well with OSAS.

I have seen people who are born again in prison and they just picked up the Bible and read it, a similar story of a man in South Korea, and in all cases people come out believing exactly as most Christians have throughout history. OSAS is only embraced after they have been taught and shown verses here and there, which is why I always say, to debunk OSAS the best thing to do is look up all their proof-texts and keep reading, eventually you will hit that roadblock where you notice that okay I see it.

I know that odds are you will not be changing your stance, no matter the evidence, I am responding more so for the sake of the people who might be reading this and have ears to hear
Click to expand...
What part of God’s gifts being irrevocable are not irrevocable? Asking for a friend.
 
Melach

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dcontroversal said:
The bible also states that ONE born from above DOES NOT SIN, YET JOHN states that if we say that we have no sin we are deceived and the truth is NOT IN US...so HOW do we reconcile that......both JESUS, PAUL and JOHN cover this issue......

The born again SPIRIT (which does not sin) is still BOUND in a body of SIN that has yet to be changed
THE MIND is the battle ground for control

THE spirit is indeed WILLING, BUT the FLESH IS WEAK!!!!!
Click to expand...
what anyone should read for that battle and the spirit vs flesh is romans chapter7. st.paul goes there to show us that
 
Lightskin

Lightskin

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dcontroversal said:
What many cannot grasp is the simple truth that SIN is not the issue.....FAITH is the issue.....SIN has been death with at the cross....My bible states clearly that he paid for the SINS of the WHOLE world and when he said IT IS FINISHED...that comes from a LEGAL accounting term which = PAID IN FULL...........

People make two mistakes; they fail to believe God is as gracious as He is, thus they fail to believe in the power of grace through faith.
Click to expand...
 
Melach

Melach

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God chastises people i believe one way of this is when people live in sin they doubt salvation. i did that am i even saved God please

thats why you shouldnt sin because nothing good comes but doubt of conversion, no testimony, no happiness, no joy, no love, quenching of the Spirit and life falling apart in all ways

there is pleasure in sin for a season. but its only that one time but then after that its feeling horrible and miserable all the time who wants that?

i also think that if someone doesnt even want to obey God like they just hate the bible they hate God's word they arent even saved ever. because st. john says they would believe the testimony of us if they were.

if you can just sin as much as you want as many say of osas then it means you arent even saved. because God says He chastises those who are his sons, and you arent His son if you get no chastisement. if you feel good about sinning then you are not even a son to begin with.
 
M

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dcontroversal said:
There is nothing missing in that post.......only in your mind there is because I wrote it.....do not address me.......
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No mention of regeneration no mention of preservation. Just justification and positional sanctification, but no change of nature, no repentance, no power of God heart change...
 
M

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And those that believe are justified, regenerated, (made new), adopted, sanctified, kept by the power of God, made to be overcomers, preserved to the end, conformed to the image of His Son, and glorified. All by GRACE through FAITH

That’s the WHOLE storey🙂. That’s the Gospel. Not the watered down version you guys peddle.
 
M

Macabeus

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dcontroversal said:
Sure there is a blend.......and numerous books cover these false gospels with no power to save....Galatians being one of them.......maybe read chapter one and verse seven.......they were peddling a gospel of a DIFFERENT KIND which was double cursed, had no power and those that believe it are fools and bewitched.......

FAITH PLUS FOR salvation = hell

And I never said FAITH is dead.....and have ALWAYS said ANYTHING beyond faith are the results of the faith and salvation ONE already possess in Christ....get the facts straight about me before you attribute anything to me.....!
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Listen Buddy. My Bible says that it is grace that saves. You can have all the faith in the world, but it is God who saves us, and not we ourselves!

You do not save yourself by believing. God saves you from first to last

Believing that we initiate salvation by believing is not sound doctrine. It is God who initiates and God who finishes
 
M

Macabeus

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dcontroversal said:
Sure there is a blend.......and numerous books cover these false gospels with no power to save....Galatians being one of them.......maybe read chapter one and verse seven.......they were peddling a gospel of a DIFFERENT KIND which was double cursed, had no power and those that believe it are fools and bewitched.......

FAITH PLUS FOR salvation = hell

And I never said FAITH is dead.....and have ALWAYS said ANYTHING beyond faith are the results of the faith and salvation ONE already possess in Christ....get the facts straight about me before you attribute anything to me.....!
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I don’t know. I kind of think it is God who saves us, not our faith. How is it that faith plus nothing equals salvation? Does God perform the act of believing for us?

So if it is faith plus nothing, we are saved by what we do (believe) not what God does

That’s why it’s saved by grace through faith. Faith is the instrument. Like a musical instrument in the hands of a musician or a paint brush in the hands of an artist.

It is the doer that is the effectual cause, not the instrument that the doer uses
 
FollowtheShepherd

FollowtheShepherd

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dcontroversal said:
Grammatically and biblically that is impossible (the underlined)......David spoke of HIS salvation in the PRESENT tense, JOHN said RIGHT NOW are we he SONS of GOD.....and the bible speaks of salvation in ALL three tenses......it also uses PERFECT and AORIST verb tenses.....

NO offence but the underline = a complete lack of textual honesty.....

No by works of righteousness which we have done but according to his mercy has he saved us <---PAST tense

In the grace we are, having BEEN SAVED through faith.....<--PAST TENSE

He that believes on the SON IS HAVING everlasting LIFE <---PRESENT TENSE

The One having saved us and having called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, having been given us in Christ Jesus before time eternal <-----PAST TENSE and GIVEN before TIME ETERNAL

Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham.”

ACTS-->No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.

I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life.

I can go on and on and on quoting verses that PROVE salvation is a present current possession and NOT something we GET at the end.....it is contextually dishonest to say or believe that we do not currently possess it....It is spoken of in ALL three tenses, and NOT one verse in context = the loss of it......the reason it is spoken of in ALL three tenses is because of the VERB tenses applied by the GREEK....A perfect TENSE GREEK VERB = a present continuing result from a past COMPLETED ACTION.....

WAS SAVED
AM SAVED
CONTINUING to BE SAVED......
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Well a number ofverse seem to show differently, that is why I hold this belief;

James 1:12, "Blessed is the man who does endure trial, for when he has been proved, he shall receive the crown of life which the Master has promised to those who love Him."

Matthew 10:22, “And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.”

Matt 24:12-13, “And because of the increase in lawlessness, the love of many shall become cold. But he who shall have endured to the end shall be saved.”

Hebrews 10:36-38, “For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God you may receive what is promised. 37 For yet a little while – He who is coming shall come and shall not delay. 38 But the righteous shall live by belief, but if anyone draws back, my being has no pleasure in him.”

Hebrews 9:27-28, “And as it awaits men to die once, and after this the judgment, so also the Messiah, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, shall appear a second time, apart from sin, to those waiting for Him, unto salvation.”

Romans 13:11-12, “And do this, knowing the time, that it is already the hour for us to wake up from sleep, for now our salvation is nearer than when we did believe. The night is far advanced, the day has come near. So let us put off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armor of light.”
 
M

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dcontroversal said:
Romans 12 teaches a transformational process.....that requires a period of growth, study and renewal of the mind....it is not instantly given.....NOW salvation, justification, being sanctified positionally and sealed ARE......but the OUTWARD man must be changed by growth and maturity which is described as an ongoing process of growth and maturity.....it is subject to successes and or failures and is tied directly to Romans 12:1-2.......as the man is changed inwardly by growth and maturity based upon a study of the word and application of the word they begin to change OUTWARDLY........for some this can be an accelerated process based upon the level of teaching they get and how they apply the word of GOD....for some it may be a very slow process if they are fed milk nonstop and never really apply what they learn.....This process is NOT hard to grasp and LIKE JESUS and others which constantly referenced creation which speaks loud and clear this can be seen easily.......

Take for instance my tame black berry plants.......I have about 20 planted......the ones that got more fertilizer, water etc. and were in better soil grew vines frmo 8 to 10 feet long this summer........the ones which had less fertilizer, water and were in soil a little harder and drier only put off about three foot vines.........

DAY unto DAY and NIGHT unto NIGHT sets forth KNOWLEDGE unless one is to challenged in an ocular manner to SEE..............

10 to 1 the ten foot vines bear more fruit than the three foot vines......NEXT YEAR
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So basically you're saying that when one becomes a Christian they become this?

 
FollowtheShepherd

FollowtheShepherd

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Macabeus said:
I disagree with the part of not having salvation till we meet him in the air.

We who believe have eternal life, present tense. (1 John 5:13)

...and the one's who overcome are the one's who believe. 1 John 5:5

ALL who believe are overcomers. ( 1 John :4)

...and all who overcome, inherit all things. Revelation 21:7

These four verses together teach the wholesome doctrine of perserverance of the Saints through the Preservation of God.
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John 3:36, “He who believes in the Son possesses everlasting life, but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.”

These are some verses why I hold that view:

James 1:12, "Blessed is the man who does endure trial, for when he has been proved, he shall receive the crown of life which the Master has promised to those who love Him."

Matthew 10:22, “And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.”

Matt 24:12-13, “And because of the increase in lawlessness, the love of many shall become cold. But he who shall have endured to the end shall be saved.”

Hebrews 10:36-38, “For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God you may receive what is promised. 37 For yet a little while – He who is coming shall come and shall not delay. 38 But the righteous shall live by belief, but if anyone draws back, my being has no pleasure in him.”

Hebrews 9:27-28, “And as it awaits men to die once, and after this the judgment, so also the Messiah, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, shall appear a second time, apart from sin, to those waiting for Him, unto salvation.”

Romans 13:11-12, “And do this, knowing the time, that it is already the hour for us to wake up from sleep, for now our salvation is nearer than when we did believe. The night is far advanced, the day has come near. So let us put off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armor of light.”
 
M

Macabeus

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FollowtheShepherd said:
John 3:36, “He who believes in the Son possesses everlasting life, but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.”

These are some verses why I hold that view:

James 1:12, "Blessed is the man who does endure trial, for when he has been proved, he shall receive the crown of life which the Master has promised to those who love Him."

Matthew 10:22, “And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.”

Matt 24:12-13, “And because of the increase in lawlessness, the love of many shall become cold. But he who shall have endured to the end shall be saved.”

Hebrews 10:36-38, “For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God you may receive what is promised. 37 For yet a little while – He who is coming shall come and shall not delay. 38 But the righteous shall live by belief, but if anyone draws back, my being has no pleasure in him.”

Hebrews 9:27-28, “And as it awaits men to die once, and after this the judgment, so also the Messiah, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, shall appear a second time, apart from sin, to those waiting for Him, unto salvation.”

Romans 13:11-12, “And do this, knowing the time, that it is already the hour for us to wake up from sleep, for now our salvation is nearer than when we did believe. The night is far advanced, the day has come near. So let us put off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armor of light.”
Click to expand...
Well, some would say these verses are prescriptive and others would say they are descriptive.
 
KJV1611

KJV1611

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dcontroversal said:
What many cannot grasp is the simple truth that SIN is not the issue.....FAITH is the issue.....SIN has been death with at the cross....My bible states clearly that he paid for the SINS of the WHOLE world and when he said IT IS FINISHED...that comes from a LEGAL accounting term which = PAID IN FULL...........

The bible also states that ONE born from above DOES NOT SIN, YET JOHN states that if we say that we have no sin we are deceived and the truth is NOT IN US...so HOW do we reconcile that......both JESUS, PAUL and JOHN cover this issue......

The born again SPIRIT (which does not sin) is still BOUND in a body of SIN that has yet to be changed
THE MIND is the battle ground for control
The greater the transformation the LESS WE SIN in the FLESH
A child of GOD will not LIVE a continual lifestyle of SIN

THE spirit is indeed WILLING, BUT the FLESH IS WEAK!!!!!
Click to expand...
At one point you're saying that sin has been put to death at the cross.
Then you say the greater the transformation, the LESS we sin.

We STILL SIN, sin HAS NOT been put to death. Your interpretation is WRONG, it's a contradictory statement.
That which is born of God DOES NOT SIN.... The mind isn't a battle ground, there is no battle in that which IS BORN OF GOD.

Why not try figure out what part of you is born again by the INCORRUPTIBLE words of God. That's where those verses get reconciled.
 
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