Is Jesus found in the O.T.?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
2,025
506
113
#41
What do I think? To interpret the Scriptures above is very hard, this is as if we have to decipher enigmas /puzzles. But what is written in 1Cor.2:v.9-13?
9 It is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. 10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Spirit teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

That said, it is wonderful to search the deep things of God. One of God's deep things is to know God. First, God is not a name, to me is a title. We know that God is Spirit and He is Invisible. John the Apostle said: The Word is God. The Holy Scriptures is the own Word,that is the invisible God who was made flesh, for the Word - the God Father - is Spirit. For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word-the Word made flesh-, and the Holy Spirit(who is not a Ghost as is written in English language, but a Person): and these three are One.


You wrote "this says Moses spoke with an angel on Mt. Sinai"

Yes, God- the Word- the Word is Spirit - sent His angel on Mt. Sinai to spek with Moses and he made a great sign before Moses. And the angel (actually an Archangel, a Prince of the Lord) revealed to Moses the plans of God-the Word, and said: "Come now therefore, and I will send thee unto Pharaoh, that thou mayest bring forth my people the children of Israel out of Egypt. That was hard Moses to understand what was happening and asked to the angel: and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them? 14 And God -God is Spirit- speaking by His angel said unto Moses, I Am That I Am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you.

I Am that I Am is not a name, this a personal statement: I am that I am. For example: You are that you are and I am that I am, no mystery. But when the angel said unto Moses: Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you, here is hidden a great mystery, and it is this: The I Am is JESUS, but the name of JESUS could not be revealed yet or in that time. I Am is the person of JESUS really. God the Father-the Word- and JESUS are One. All things, but all, were made by JESUS; and without JESUS was not any thing made that was made. JESUS sent His angel - actually an archangel, by the way, a warrior, a Prince of the Lord - to speak with Moses on Mt. Sinai. See, we are speaking of mysteries, they are not hidden, but is about revelation.

You asked: "how does Agur know that God has a Son, in Proverbs 30:4?"

It is wonderful, God was revealing His secret unto Agur - God, the Word, is Spirit - but the name of His Son was also a secret to be revealed in its own time, precisely in the fourth Day after Adam , when the Word would be made flesh.

If anything you would like to know has not been clarified, feel free to ask

God bless

now I need to go, I'll be back later to answer other posts by God's will
Why are you avoiding to answer the question which is the same question I ask you oseas? Who is the angel of the Lord and how do you know that the angel of the Lord is an arcangel? :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,395
113
#42
Why are you avoiding to answer the question which is the same question I ask you oseas? Who is the angel of the Lord and how do you know that the angel of the Lord is an arcangel? :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Of or from <--indicate source....the LORD being the source......

1 + 1 = 2 unless you use "common core" bible interpretation.....
 
Mar 2, 2019
216
16
18
#43
Oseas said:
Exodus 23:v.23 - For mine Angel (actually an Archangel) shall go before thee, and bring thee in unto the Amorites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Canaanites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites: and I will cut them off.

what translation is this that says "actually an archangel" in Exodus 23:23?
I do not interpret Scriptures by the letters, but by the real revelation hidden behind the letter, the letter kills. The translation says "mine Angel" , but Michael is an archangel, he is a warrior, it is he who makes the Wars of the LORD. Actually he is a Lord too, but JESUS is the LORD of the lords.

JESUS, the I Am in the OT, sent Michael to talk with Moses firstly on Mt. Sinai, and upon Michael was the real name of God as He used it in the Old Testament. In other words, Michael was named and covered by the LORD God as if he was the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, as was said to Moses. God said: this is my NAME for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations. Michael worked in the NAME of the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, as was said to Moses. Ex.3:v.15 and 23:v.21 leave this clearly revealed

The people said to Moses: Ex.5:v.21-23 - 21 The Lord look upon you, and judge; because ye have made our savour to be abhorred in the eyes of Pharaoh, and in the eyes of his servants, to put a sword in their hand to slay us. 22 And Moses returned unto the Lord, and said, Lord, wherefore hast thou so evil entreated this people? why is it that thou hast sent me? 23 For since I came to Pharaoh to speak in thy NAME, he hath done evil to this people; neither hast thou delivered thy people at all.

The Lord said to Moses: Ex.6:v.1-3 - Now shalt thou see what I will do to Pharaoh: for with a strong hand shall he let them go, and with a strong hand shall he drive them out of his land. 2 And God spake unto Moses, and said unto him, I am the Lord: 3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my NAME was I not known to them. - Yes, by His own NAME the Lord was not known because was not yet revealed His real NAME, actually His real NAME could not be revealed in that time, otherwise He as God would have said it. - The translation added "Jehovah" of EQUIVOCATED manner. In his pray to the Father, JESUS said: I have manifested thy NAME unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world. What's NAME? The Word is God, God is Spirit, what is His NAME? When the Word, the Word is God, was made flesh what was the NAME he chose for Him Himself? The NAME is that by which He was not known in the Old Testament.

The Lord said: Ex.14:v.18-20 - 18 The Egyptians shall know that I Am the Lord, when I have gotten me honour upon Pharaoh, upon his chariots, and upon his horsemen. 19 And - Michael - the angel of God -actually an archangel - a warrior- , which went before the camp of Israel, removed and went behind them; and the pillar of the cloud went from before their face, and stood behind them: 20 - And it came between the camp of the Egyptians and the camp of Israel; and it was a cloud and darkness to them, but it gave light by night to these: so that the one came not near the other all the night.

Ex.15:v.3 - Moses said: The Lord is a man of war: the Lord is his name. Lord is a title. JESUS said: John 13:v.13 - Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I Am.

Continues below
 
Mar 2, 2019
216
16
18
#44
what translation is this that says "actually an archangel" in Exodus 23:23?
Continuation of post above

JOSHUA IS DESIGNATED SUCESSOR OF MOSES
And Moses took Joshua the man in whom was spirit, and laid his hand upon him, and set him before Eleazar the priest, and before all the congregation; and gave him commandments in their sight, and put part of his honor in Joshua, that all the congregation of the children of Israel might obey. Numbers 27:v.18-23

It is important to say that Archangel Michael accompanied Moses'journey with all the people of Israel when at the age of 120 was told he will die before entering the Promised Land, this happened when he climbed to the top of Mount Nebo and there he died and was buried by the Lord.

After the death of Moses, the Lord spoke unto Joshua, Moses'sucessor, saying: Moses my servant is dead; now therefore arise, go over this Jordan, you, and all this people, unto the land which I do give to them, even to the children of Israel. Every place that the sole of your foot shall tread upon, that have I given unto you, as I said unto Moses.

And the children of Israel encamped in Gilgal, and kept the passover on the fourteenth day of the month at even in the plains of Jericho.

One day, when Joshua was there by Jericho, he raised his eyes and looked; and in front of him stood a MAN with his drawn Sword in his hand. Joshua went over to him and asked him, “Are you on our side or on the side of our enemies?” Nay; but as captain of the host of the Lord am I now come. And Joshua fell down with his face to the ground and worshipped him, then asked, “What does my lord have to say to his servant?” And -Michael who was with Moses on Mt. Sinai-, the captain of the Lord's host, said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so. Joshua 5:v.10-15

THE LAST DAYS - THE COMING OF MICHAEL BEFORE JESUS COMING

After a long time, Daniel prophesied about the last days and the manifestation of the archangel Michael, saying: Dan.12:v.1-3 -
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the Great Prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

1 Thes.4:v.16-17
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel - the voice of Michael-, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

THE BIRTH OF MICHAEL - SIMILAR TO THE BIRTH OF JOHN THE BAPTIST
Revelation 12:v.1-2 & 5 & 7 & 11 and on
1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
5 And she brought forth a MAN child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
7 And there was War in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the Word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

SATAN IS CAST DOWN INTO THE BOTTOMLESS PIT
Revelation 20:v.1-3
1 And I saw an angel -Michael- come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the Dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled:

JESUS SENT MICHAEL TO SHOW TO THE CHURCHES THE LATEST HAPENNINGS
Revelation 1:v.1 & 19-20
1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel -by Michael- unto his servant John:
19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;
20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

SOME HAPPENNINGS OF THE LAST DAY - THE LORD'S DAY - THE SEVENTH AND LAST DAY OR SEVENTH AND LAST MILLENNIUM

There will be War, and Judgment, and resurrection, and a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time, and so on .

Revelation 22:v.16-17
16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Luke 18:v.8

Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?
 
Mar 2, 2019
216
16
18
#45
Hi oseas! Let me first say it is good that you quoted Stephen at Acts 7 because I too like what how he read the "riot" act to the Jews.
Greetings
Yes, the wisdom that Stephen received from our God is marvellous, he was full of the Holy Spirit, and looking up stedfastly into heaven, he saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, and said : Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.


Now, I have two questions for you? What is your personal belief as to who the angel of the Lord is? Secondly, how do you know the angel of the Lord is an "Archangel?"
Really the literal translation says "angel of the Lord", but he is a strong angel, a warrior, a Prince of the Lord, his name is Michael, it is he who makes the God's Wars, actually he is an archangel. By the way, the prophet Daniel did write about him, and reveals that being him here in these last days, his presence here will cause and has already caused great and severe turbulences in the world of Devil, in fulfilment of the Word of God about him, and the Devil's world will be DISSOLVED by entire henceforwards, day after day.

2Peter 3:v.10-13
10 See, the heavens (the first and second heavens or celestial places in Christ-Eph.1:v.3) shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the WORKS that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that ALL THESE THINGS shall be DISSOLVED, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the Day of God - the seventh and last Day or seventh and last millennium-, wherein the heavens (the FIRST and SECOND heavens) being on FIRE shall be DISSOLVED, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens - the NEXT is the 3rd HEAVEN - the KINGDOM OF GOD, Luke 20:v.35-36 & Rev.5:v.10 among others - and a NEW earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Now unto the King Eternal, Immortal, Invisible, the only Wise God, be Honour and Glory for ever and ever. Amen.
 
Mar 2, 2019
216
16
18
#46
And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, a Man stood opposite him with His sword drawn in His hand. And Joshua went to Him and said to Him, “Are You for us or for our adversaries?”
So He said, “No, but as Commander of the army of the Lord I have now come.”
And Joshua fell on his face to the earth and worshiped, and said to Him, “What does my Lord say to His servant?”
Then the Commander of the Lord’s army said to Joshua, “Take your sandal off your foot, for the place where you stand is holy.” And Joshua did so.
(Joshua 5:13-15)
when the people are about to enter the land, Joshua met THE Angel of the LORD.
THE Angel of the LORD accepted worship from Joshua without rebuking him.
when Joshua asked Him what he should do, that he might obey His voice, He told him to take off his sandals because the place he stood in His presence was holy - just like what was said at the burning bush by I AM. not coincidence ;)
It was not and is not coincidence. He is the same which was with Moses on Mt. Sinai. Moses died but before he designated Joshua to replace him in the command of the people, in accord the instruction of our Lord. He is the archangel Michael, it is he who makes God's War. It is he who will cast down Satan into the bottomless pit (Rev.20);
 

PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
5,399
695
113
#47
Jesus in the Old Testament

In Genesis we read that the heaven and earth were created by the Word of God (and God said). Jesus is the Word.

Psa_33:6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.

More references to Jesus in the Psalms include:

Psa_107:20 He sent his word, and healed them, and delivered them from their destructions.

Psa 45:7 Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

Psalm 110 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies. Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth. The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek. The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath. He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries. He shall drink of the brook in the way: therefore shall he lift up the head.

Old Testament prophecies about Jesus include Isaiah 7:14-15, and 52:13-53:12, and Deut. 18:14-22 among others.

We see the Suffering and Death of the Messiah (Isaiah 50–53) and many more references to Jesus in Isaiah see the link

http://www.agapebiblestudy.com/chart...Prophecies.htm

Jesus is the Rock: Deu 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

Isa 41:4 tells us “I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he.” This is Jesus.

Resurrection of Jesus and his later appearance. Hos 6:1-3 Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up. After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight. Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth.

This part of the song of Moses that began so sombrely in Deu 32:5 They have corrupted themselves, their spot is not the spot of his children: they are a perverse and crooked generation.
It ends with a cry of praise for the I AM who can and will save his people in the end, even from their own sin.
Praise God's holy name, the “I AM.”

Psa 2:7 KJV
7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

Zec 9:9 KJV
9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.

Zec 12:10 KJV
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Psa 110:1 KJV
1 A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Isa 2:4 KJV
4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Isa 2:21 KJV
21 To go into the clefts of the rocks, and into the tops of the ragged rocks, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.

Rev 19:21 KJV
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh. (This is Jesus v11, the sword is his Word. The Word is God.)
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,645
13,120
113
#49
JESUS SENT MICHAEL TO SHOW TO THE CHURCHES THE LATEST HAPENNINGS
Revelation 1:v.1 & 19-20
1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel -by Michael- unto his servant John:
19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;
20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
you are saying that it is Michael who was at Jericho with Joshua and that it is Michael who was at Sinai with Moses and that it is Michael who spoke to John in Revelation.

i think that's a serious problem:


Then the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!” And he added, “These are the true words of God.”
At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers and sisters who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For it is the Spirit of prophecy who bears testimony to Jesus.”
(Revelation 19:9-10)
The angel said to me, “These words are trustworthy and true. The Lord, the God who inspires the prophets, sent his angel to show his servants the things that must soon take place.”
“Look, I am coming soon! Blessed is the one who keeps the words of the prophecy written in this scroll.”
I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me. But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your fellow prophets and with all who keep the words of this scroll. Worship God!”
(Revelation 22:6-9)


here's two witnesses of the angel rebuking John immediately for worshiping him.
but Joshua worshiped at the feet of the One who met him and was not rebuked. ((Joshua 5:14))
but Moses worshiped the One who met him and was not rebuked. ((Exodus 34:8))


the word says, worship God and Him only. ((Exodus 23:25, Deuteronomy 6:13, Luke 4:8 etc))
if this is Michael accepting worship, then Michael is evil.
 

bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
2,025
506
113
#50
Greetings
Yes, the wisdom that Stephen received from our God is marvellous, he was full of the Holy Spirit, and looking up stedfastly into heaven, he saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, and said : Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.




Really the literal translation says "angel of the Lord", but he is a strong angel, a warrior, a Prince of the Lord, his name is Michael, it is he who makes the God's Wars, actually he is an archangel. By the way, the prophet Daniel did write about him, and reveals that being him here in these last days, his presence here will cause and has already caused great and severe turbulences in the world of Devil, in fulfilment of the Word of God about him, and the Devil's world will be DISSOLVED by entire henceforwards, day after day.

2Peter 3:v.10-13
10 See, the heavens (the first and second heavens or celestial places in Christ-Eph.1:v.3) shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the WORKS that are therein shall be burned up.


11 Seeing then that ALL THESE THINGS shall be DISSOLVED, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the Day of God - the seventh and last Day or seventh and last millennium-, wherein the heavens (the FIRST and SECOND heavens) being on FIRE shall be DISSOLVED, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens - the NEXT is the 3rd HEAVEN - the KINGDOM OF GOD, Luke 20:v.35-36 & Rev.5:v.10 among others - and a NEW earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Now unto the King Eternal, Immortal, Invisible, the only Wise God, be Honour and Glory for ever and ever. Amen.
My trick knee told me from reading your post that you would say the angel of the Lord was Michael the arcangel. Why did you talk all around it instead of just saying the angel of the Lord was Michael right from the beginning? This is why I directly ask you who he was.

Now, I'm going to be "blunt" and tell you that it is impossible that the angel of the Lord is Michael. The angel of the Lord is the preincarnate Jesus Christ. Let me give you the "scriptual" evidence. The angel of the Lord first appears as the angel of the Lord at Genesis 16:7. (I'm going to cut to the chase on this presentation.)

Read the rest of the verses that follow Genesis 16:6. Also read Genesis 17:1-2 wher it clearly says the Lord God (physically) appeared to Abram and said He would multiply Abram's descendants just like the angel of the Lord said he will multiply Hagar's descendents. It's the same being/God who is doing the multiplying, not Michael the arcangel. Also notice in Genesis 16 that Hagar says she saw God and lived. We already know that God the Father cannot be seen even according to Jesus Christ Himself at John 1:18 and at other places.

Now, here's the "kicker" that ties all this together. Please read Genesis 22 starting at vs11 where it says, "But the angel of the Lord called out to him from heaven, and said, "Abraham, Abraham." And he said here I am." The angel of the Lord calls out from heaven a second time at vs15, "Then the angel of the Lord called to Abraham a second time from heaven."

What did he say? vs16, "and said, By Myself I have SWORN declares the Lord because you have done this thing, and have not withheld your son, your only son. vs17 "indeed I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens, and as the sand which is on the seashore etc.

The main point I'm making is the fact that angels cannot swear oaths on behalf of God Almighty. At Hebrews 6:13,14, the writer is referring back to Genesis 22 and here is what it says, "For when God made the promise to Abraham, SINCE HE COULD NOT SWEAR BY NO ONE GREATER, HE SWORE BY HIMSELF, vs14, saying, "I will surely bless you, and I will surely multiply you."

An angel is not greater than God Himself. Secondly, swearing an oath is a matter of one's conscience. In a court of law a person cannot swear for somebody else, period. If you witness a crime you cannot send your uncle harry in there for you and have him swear to what he saw. If you have any questions I will be happy to address them. And one more thing, please don't let your pride get in the way of discounting the scriptual evidence, be openminded. :eek:

IN THE ANGEL OF THE LORD,
bluto
 
Mar 2, 2019
216
16
18
#51
you are saying that it is Michael who was at Jericho with Joshua and that it is Michael who was at Sinai with Moses and that it is Michael who spoke to John in Revelation.
i think that's a serious problem:
Perfect. You understood correctly what was interpreted and revealed.

i think that's a serious problem:
Oh no, there is no problem, possibly you are creating one from your perspective. But it is understandable, for we are speaking of mysteries.


Then the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!” And he added, “These are the true words of God.”At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers and sisters who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For it is the Spirit of prophecy who bears testimony to Jesus.”(Revelation 19:9-10) The angel said to me, “These words are trustworthy and true. The Lord, the God who inspires the prophets, sent his angel to show his servants the things that must soon take place.”“Look, I am coming soon! Blessed is the one who keeps the words of the prophecy written in this scroll.”I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me. But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your fellow prophets and with all who keep the words of this scroll. Worship God!”(Revelation 22:6-9)

here's two witnesses of the angel rebuking John immediately for worshiping him.
but Joshua worshiped at the feet of the One who met him and was not rebuked. ((Joshua 5:14))
but Moses worshiped the One who met him and was not rebuked. ((Exodus 34:8))
Did you see?
Moses worship him
Joshua worship him
and John also fell twice at his feet to worship him.


the word says, worship God and Him only. ((Exodus 23:25, Deuteronomy 6:13, Luke 4:8 etc))
Why then Moses and Joshua and John the Apostle bowed before him or worshipped him?

if this is Michael accepting worship, then Michael is evil.
Be careful. Remember, the Word is God. Ecclesiastes 5:v.6 says: Do not let thy mouth to cause thy flesh to sin; neither say thou before the angel, that it was an error: wherefore should God be angry at thy voice, and destroy the work of thine hands?

See, when Moses and Joshua bowed before him, the Old Testament did not yet exist. What about John, who knew all about the OT and the NTs, where was John when he bowed before Michael?
What was the degree of knowledge of Moses and Joshua about heavenly things compared to the knowledge of John, to whom our Lord Jesus sent Michael to show all that was in the sealed book, sealed with seven seals, and which were broken by Jesus to reveal to his servants the things that were written in the sealed book?

These are two moments and two very different situations and Moses and Joshua did not even know the whole content of the OT.


To the only wise God our Saviour, be Glory and Majesty, Dominion and Power, both now and ever. Amen.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,706
3,650
113
#52
And he said to them, “O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken! Was it not necessary that the Christ should suffer these things and enter into his glory?” And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself.
(Luk 24:25-27)
 
Feb 28, 2016
11,311
2,972
113
#53
JOHN 1:1.
In (the beginning) was 'The Word', (CHRIST)=EMMUNEAL=God with us) and 'The Word was with God, and The Word was God'.
2.
'The Same was in the beginning with God'.
3.
(((All things were made by Him; and without Him was not any thing made that was made))).
4.
In (Him=CHRIST) was 'Life'; and the Life was 'The Light of men'.
 
Sep 6, 2014
7,034
5,435
113
#54
Luke 24:44-45
Then He said to them, “These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me.” 45And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures.
 
Mar 2, 2019
216
16
18
#55
And he said to them, “O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken! Was it not necessary that the Christ should suffer these things and enter into his glory?” And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself.
(Luk 24:25-27)
Acts 3:v.22-16 & 19-21 KJV

22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.

23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.

25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.

26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.

20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. ---> Who reads the prophets may discern that the time of restitution of all things has already arrived.

1 Thessalonians 5:v.2and 5

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the Day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that Day should overtake you as a thief.


Amen.
 

bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
2,025
506
113
#56
My trick knee told me from reading your post that you would say the angel of the Lord was Michael the arcangel. Why did you talk all around it instead of just saying the angel of the Lord was Michael right from the beginning? This is why I directly ask you who he was.

Now, I'm going to be "blunt" and tell you that it is impossible that the angel of the Lord is Michael. The angel of the Lord is the preincarnate Jesus Christ. Let me give you the "scriptual" evidence. The angel of the Lord first appears as the angel of the Lord at Genesis 16:7. (I'm going to cut to the chase on this presentation.)

Read the rest of the verses that follow Genesis 16:6. Also read Genesis 17:1-2 wher it clearly says the Lord God (physically) appeared to Abram and said He would multiply Abram's descendants just like the angel of the Lord said he will multiply Hagar's descendents. It's the same being/God who is doing the multiplying, not Michael the arcangel. Also notice in Genesis 16 that Hagar says she saw God and lived. We already know that God the Father cannot be seen even according to Jesus Christ Himself at John 1:18 and at other places.

Now, here's the "kicker" that ties all this together. Please read Genesis 22 starting at vs11 where it says, "But the angel of the Lord called out to him from heaven, and said, "Abraham, Abraham." And he said here I am." The angel of the Lord calls out from heaven a second time at vs15, "Then the angel of the Lord called to Abraham a second time from heaven."

What did he say? vs16, "and said, By Myself I have SWORN declares the Lord because you have done this thing, and have not withheld your son, your only son. vs17 "indeed I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens, and as the sand which is on the seashore etc.

The main point I'm making is the fact that angels cannot swear oaths on behalf of God Almighty. At Hebrews 6:13,14, the writer is referring back to Genesis 22 and here is what it says, "For when God made the promise to Abraham, SINCE HE COULD NOT SWEAR BY NO ONE GREATER, HE SWORE BY HIMSELF, vs14, saying, "I will surely bless you, and I will surely multiply you."

An angel is not greater than God Himself. Secondly, swearing an oath is a matter of one's conscience. In a court of law a person cannot swear for somebody else, period. If you witness a crime you cannot send your uncle harry in there for you and have him swear to what he saw. If you have any questions I will be happy to address them. And one more thing, please don't let your pride get in the way of discounting the scriptual evidence, be openminded. :eek:

IN THE ANGEL OF THE LORD,
bluto
Bumped for oseas. How come no answer? :eek:

IN THE ANGEL OF THE LORD,
bluto
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,162
2,380
113
#57
Can you out of the Old Testament only prove Jesus is Messiah? When Jesus was on the Earth, as human, the people of tat time, only had the Old Testament, Suptuaget Scripture, and had to believe Jesus was the Messiah. Today we have the New Testament, but could you believe if you had only the Old Testament//? Prove how...

You just might find out the O.T. is still relevant....
As Nehemiah said, the OT proof goes on and on. But here are couple which the Jews and religious leaders should have recognized:

"Rejoice greatly, O Daughter of Zion! Shout in triumph, O Daughter of Jerusalem! See, your King comes to you, righteous and victorious, humble and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey." - Zech.9:9

When Jesus rode into Jerusalem on the foal of a colt, all of Israel should have recognize the fulfillment of this scripture, yet they did not. Instead they said, "who is this?" And when the Lord was riding in, the whole multitude of disciples were exclaiming "

"Blessed is the King who comes in the name of the Lord!"

Instead of recognizing the fulfillment of Zech.9:9, they told the Lord to rebuke His disciples for their exclamation of praise.

"Dogs surround me, a pack of villains encircles me; they pierce my hands and my feet. All my bones are on display; people stare and gloat over me. They divide my clothes among them and cast lots for my garment.

Regarding the scripture above, they should have recognized that Jesus was the One who was spoken of, especially after they crucified Him.

They also should have known by the prophecy found in Daniel 9:24-27. For it states that from the issuing of the decree to rebuild and restore Jerusalem until the Messiah, would be seven 'sevens" and sixty two 'sevens" equaling sixty nine 'sevens," i.e. sixty nine seven year periods. All they would have had to do was count from the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem found in Nehemiah, followed by sixty nine seven year periods, or 483 years. When Jesus showed up performing all of those works, they would have known that He was the Messiah that was to come.

Also, the religious leaders stated that no prophet comes out of Galilee. However, if they had gone to Mary, they would have found out 1). that Jesus was a miraculous birth and 2). that He was born in Bethlehem, which would have matched the prophesies of Isaiah 7:14 and where the Messiah to be was born.
 
Mar 2, 2019
216
16
18
#58
JOHN 1:1.
In (the beginning) was 'The Word', (CHRIST)=EMMUNEAL=God with us) and 'The Word was with God, and The Word was God'.
2.
'The Same was in the beginning with God'.
3.
(((All things were made by Him; and without Him was not any thing made that was made))).
4.
In (Him=CHRIST) was 'Life'; and the Life was 'The Light of men'.

I would say also that:-

In (the beginning) -in JESUS -was 'The Word', (CHRIST)=EMMUNEAL=God with us) - the Word is God - and 'The Word was with God, and The Word was God'. ----> there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word -the Word made flesh- , and the Holy Spirit: and these three are One.
2.
'The Same was in the beginning - in JESUS - with God'.
3.
(((All things were made by Him -by JESUS-; and without Him -without JESUS- was not any thing made that was made))).
4.
In (Him=CHRIST)-in Christ JESUS- was 'Life'; and the Life was 'The Light of men;

Hebrews 1:v.1-4&6-7

1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2 Hath in these last days
(last two Days or around 2.000 years) spoken unto us by His Son, whom He hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also He made the worlds;

3 Who being the brightness of His glory, and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

4 Being made so much better than the angels, as He hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.


6 And again, when He bringeth in the firstbegotten into the World, He saith, And let all the angels of God worship Him.

7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh His angels winds (spirits), and His Ministers a flame of FIRE.

Genesis 1:v.1 - In the beginning -in/by JESUS- God -God the Father- created the heavens -the 1st, the 2nd and the 3rd heaven*, and the heavens of the heavens- and the earth.

*What is heaven? Ephesians 1:v.3-5 reveals:

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: Which of the heavens? the 1st? 2nd? - the 3rd was not established yet.
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,


In Christ JESUS, King of kings and LORD of lords
 
Mar 2, 2019
216
16
18
#60
Bumped for oseas. How come no answer? :eek:

IN THE ANGEL OF THE LORD,
bluto
Why did not you read my post #45? Maybe because I replied your post at Saturday at 2:46 AM
You had asked me:

bluto said:
Now, I have two questions for you? What is your personal belief as to who the angel of the Lord is? Secondly, how do you know the angel of the Lord is an "Archangel?"

I replied your post saying:

Quoted - Really the literal translation says "angel of the Lord", but he is a strong angel, a warrior, a Prince of the Lord, his name is Michael, it is he who makes the God's Wars, actually he is an archangel. By the way, the prophet Daniel did write about him, and reveals that being him here in these last days, his presence here will cause, and has already caused, great and severe turbulences in the world of Devil, in fulfilment of the Word of God about him, and the Devil's world will be DISSOLVED by entire henceforwards, day after day.

bluto said:
My trick knee told me from reading your post that you would say the angel of the Lord was Michael the arcangel. Why did you talk all around it instead of just saying the angel of the Lord was Michael right from the beginning? This is why I directly ask you who he was.

I answered your post right from the beginning, exactly in accord you had asked. Why did your spirit shut your eyes? And now manifest itself so agressive? What is happening with you?