I am a OSAS believer, so yes they are still saved eternally, but after they had been revealed the truth and taught and preached it in the church and then for some reason left the church whether it be lust for another woman, preach a false doctrine for more money in one of the denominational churches, or other various reasons, they were not allowed to be accepted back into the church. I have witnessed this myself.
Are Those Who Have Fallen Away in Hebrews 6:4-8 Born-Again?
- Thread starter JadenS
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I'm sorry FCG, that is a very outrageous claim to make i.e. that one can behave in any manner that they like and still retain their salvation. One action proves the other. I'm not talking about legalism, but rather James epistle about those claiming to be saved but that their actions prove otherwise, that is, exposing their lack of faith. I think that you yourself, just revealed the deficiency in your belief by citing many vices that you understand to have no bearing on one's redemption. You mentioned adultery, heresy and avarice, again, i'm not a legalist, but Christians cannot behave in any egregious manner that they like once saved, and claim that they still have remission for their sins, one substantiates the other.
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You have a misunderstanding of how depraved all of us are, by our nature. We do not lose that nature just because we are regenerated, but carry that baggage with us until our natural death. Paul explains it in Romans 7:18-23. You will never understand the grace of God until you understand the depravity of man.
Death is a separation. In James 1:15 the death (seperation) when we commit a sin is the separation we experience of our fellowship with God until we repent because God does not fellowship with sin. We do not lose our eternal inheritance, just a separation from our fellowship with God, temporary, until we repent.
I am on the Ignore List of this member as they do not answer questions posed toward their assertive theology.
However, for this instance I want to ask anyone who believes as they do about our still having a sin nature even after we're saved.
If we're still Totally Depraved, as they believe, what then were we redeemed from? What occurred in the failure of our being regenerated as a new creation that the old has passed away?
The Book of 2nd Corinthians chapter 5 17 Whoever is a believer in Christ is a new creation. The old way of living has disappeared. A new way of living has come into existence. 18 God has done all this. He has restored our relationship with him through Christ, and has given us this ministry of restoring relationships.
However, for this instance I want to ask anyone who believes as they do about our still having a sin nature even after we're saved.
If we're still Totally Depraved, as they believe, what then were we redeemed from? What occurred in the failure of our being regenerated as a new creation that the old has passed away?
The Book of 2nd Corinthians chapter 5 17 Whoever is a believer in Christ is a new creation. The old way of living has disappeared. A new way of living has come into existence. 18 God has done all this. He has restored our relationship with him through Christ, and has given us this ministry of restoring relationships.
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It is always refreshing to see when others are blessed with the same truth of God's word. In addition to Colossians 1:23, we have a couple of other scriptures which echo the same truth:
"We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end." - Hebrews 3:14
"Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, and in which you stand firm. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.
"For the gospel reveals the righteousness of God that comes by faith from start to finish, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.” - Romans 1:17
"You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” That is correct: They were broken off because of unbelief, but you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you either. - Romans 11:19
In the scripture above, Paul is writing to believers in Rome. He says to them that they are saved by faith, but if they turn to unbelief, then neither will God spare them. How then can a believer/branch be broken off if OSAS?
I believe in OSAS if we continue in faith that we had in the beginning and continue having till the day we take our last breath, or the Lord appears to gather the church. However, I am not a proponent of OSAS no matter what. Once a believer goes back to willfully living according to the sinful nature, he/she is accumulating sin which leads to death. That person has to return or be brought back to repentance and then those sins will be covered over and they will be saved from death. This is also supported by James 5:19-21
"My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, consider this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and cover over a multitude of sins.
When a believer wanders away, they are no longer in step with the Spirit, no longer being transformed into the image of Christ and are no longer bearing fruit. If they die in the state they will be separated from God and held accountable for their sin and that because they did not continue firm in the faith that they had first.
Blessings to you!
"We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end." - Hebrews 3:14
"Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, and in which you stand firm. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.
"For the gospel reveals the righteousness of God that comes by faith from start to finish, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.” - Romans 1:17
"You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” That is correct: They were broken off because of unbelief, but you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you either. - Romans 11:19
In the scripture above, Paul is writing to believers in Rome. He says to them that they are saved by faith, but if they turn to unbelief, then neither will God spare them. How then can a believer/branch be broken off if OSAS?
I believe in OSAS if we continue in faith that we had in the beginning and continue having till the day we take our last breath, or the Lord appears to gather the church. However, I am not a proponent of OSAS no matter what. Once a believer goes back to willfully living according to the sinful nature, he/she is accumulating sin which leads to death. That person has to return or be brought back to repentance and then those sins will be covered over and they will be saved from death. This is also supported by James 5:19-21
"My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, consider this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and cover over a multitude of sins.
When a believer wanders away, they are no longer in step with the Spirit, no longer being transformed into the image of Christ and are no longer bearing fruit. If they die in the state they will be separated from God and held accountable for their sin and that because they did not continue firm in the faith that they had first.
Blessings to you!
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That is exactly what the parable infers. It is the same thing if we do not take up our crosses daily, or if we don't bear fruit.
The meaning of the parable, is that if we as believers refuse to forgive our fellow brothers and sisters who sin against us, then neither will our heavenly Father forgive us our sins. In the parable, the debt of our sin is forgiven, but if we fail to also have mercy, the God can and will reinstate it just as the parable proclaims. If you'll look at the last line, regarding the man whose sin was reinstated, Jesus said:
"That is how My Heavenly Father will treat each of you (believers) unless you forgive your brother from your heart.”
We need to pay attention to the details of scripture. We are not just saved by a one-time confession, but by faith from beginning to the end.
The meaning of the parable, is that if we as believers refuse to forgive our fellow brothers and sisters who sin against us, then neither will our heavenly Father forgive us our sins. In the parable, the debt of our sin is forgiven, but if we fail to also have mercy, the God can and will reinstate it just as the parable proclaims. If you'll look at the last line, regarding the man whose sin was reinstated, Jesus said:
"That is how My Heavenly Father will treat each of you (believers) unless you forgive your brother from your heart.”
We need to pay attention to the details of scripture. We are not just saved by a one-time confession, but by faith from beginning to the end.
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Sorry FGC, you are way too Calvinistic for me. BTW, I'm referring to both your last posts, total depravity was a figment of Augustine, Luther & Calvin's imaginations, God never took away his image from within us, and he did not make it that one person can engender depravity to another. Please tell me that you grasp that? You are giving absolutely no significance whatsoever to one's actions. Again, I am not a legalist, BUT actions are divinely revealing, meaning, in one way, God meant it as a sign so that we can discern charlatans and heresies (doctrines that don't lead to good acts, for example), 'you will know them by their actions'. Your TULIP convictions are extremely rigid and narrow sighted. Are you sure that you part of the elect, if so, how, ...actions, if not, how?????
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Hello Jaden, does that sound like a description of someone who has been "born again" to you 
It does not to me (and here's why).
It describes things that both Christians AND non-Christians (cf tares) can/will experience as a result of being part of the visible church (as it speaks of being "enlightened", of "tasting" and of "sharing", IOW, it speaks of things that people can ~experience~ in church, NOT of something that they have ~become~ in Christ).
I see these folks in Hebrews 6:4-6 (the people that these words were originally written about) as 1st Century Hebrew ~ALMOST~ Christians, unsaved Jews who existed for a time as part of the early church/early church life, who had come to a pretty complete understanding of the Christian faith (~especially~ of who Jesus really is), which resulted in them coming right up to the very point of believing, trusting and surrendering their lives to Him .. but, in the end, they never did, rather, they turned back (this also reminds me of the descriptions of those who were planted in the rocky or thorny soils .. e.g. Matthew 13:3-9, 18-23; cf Luke 9:26).
What we learn about Hebrew ~almost~ Christians like these (later in the Book of Hebrews) is that because they went on sinning willfully* after receiving the knowledge of the truth , there no longer remained a sacrifice for sins for them, but a terrifying expectation of judgment instead .. e.g. Heb 10:26-27.
~Deut
p.s. - if true, born again believers can fall away from the faith, was Jesus simply mistaken when He told us this, "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and .. of all that He has given Me, I LOSE NOTHING, but raise it up on the last day" .. John 6:37-40, 44, 65 (excerpt).
It does not to me (and here's why).It describes things that both Christians AND non-Christians (cf tares) can/will experience as a result of being part of the visible church (as it speaks of being "enlightened", of "tasting" and of "sharing", IOW, it speaks of things that people can ~experience~ in church, NOT of something that they have ~become~ in Christ).
I see these folks in Hebrews 6:4-6 (the people that these words were originally written about) as 1st Century Hebrew ~ALMOST~ Christians, unsaved Jews who existed for a time as part of the early church/early church life, who had come to a pretty complete understanding of the Christian faith (~especially~ of who Jesus really is), which resulted in them coming right up to the very point of believing, trusting and surrendering their lives to Him .. but, in the end, they never did, rather, they turned back (this also reminds me of the descriptions of those who were planted in the rocky or thorny soils .. e.g. Matthew 13:3-9, 18-23; cf Luke 9:26).
What we learn about Hebrew ~almost~ Christians like these (later in the Book of Hebrews) is that because they went on sinning willfully* after receiving the knowledge of the truth , there no longer remained a sacrifice for sins for them, but a terrifying expectation of judgment instead .. e.g. Heb 10:26-27.
~Deut
p.s. - if true, born again believers can fall away from the faith, was Jesus simply mistaken when He told us this, "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and .. of all that He has given Me, I LOSE NOTHING, but raise it up on the last day" .. John 6:37-40, 44, 65 (excerpt).
*(their 'willful' sin was their continual rejection of Christ, their continual refusal to receive Him as their Savior and Lord .. those who continually reject Christ are never born again)
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Hello again @JadenS, I think the other problem with this passage, Hebrews 6:4-6 (for the churches who use it to teach that a true believer can lose his/her salvation) is this .. it says too much. I say this because, while they teach that a believer can lose his/her salvation (on the one hand), they also teach that a believer, who has lost their salvation, can get it back (on the other), which is something that this passage clearly tells us is "impossible" (see the text below in bold).
~Deut
Hebrews 6
4 In the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 and then have fallen away, it is ~impossible~ to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
~Deut
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No offense, but I interpret this scripture different than you do; Once the Holy Spirit has revealed the truth to a person and that person has taught and preached the truth and then decides to leave the church for various reasons, for example; lust after another woman of a different faith, or preaching a false doctrine in another denomination for more money, etc. The church will exclude them and will never accept them back in fellowship, even if they repent. I have experienced this happening. I believe they do not lose their eternal inheritance because if he was one of those that God gave to Jesus, Jesus paid for all of his sins by his death on the cross.
As far as our eternal inheritance is concerned, the correct statement is, "Yes he DID forgive the sins of all those that the Father gave him on the cross. Even though our sins are forgiven eternally, we still do sin as we sojourn here on earth and have to repent to stay in fellowship with God because God does not fellowship with sin, but if you are included as one of those the Father gave to his Son your sins will not keep you out of heaven, even if they are not repented of.
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Funny how those that peddle a false, losable salvation never lose salvation......you all must be super duper Christians......
IT IS impossible to fall away to the point of needing to be renewed........falling away, being whipped, blessings yanked, loss of reward YES......NEEDING TO BE RESAVED NO.......
God's gifts and CALLING ARE IRREVOCABLE.........
IT IS impossible to fall away to the point of needing to be renewed........falling away, being whipped, blessings yanked, loss of reward YES......NEEDING TO BE RESAVED NO.......
God's gifts and CALLING ARE IRREVOCABLE.........
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It might do you some good in understanding scripture better if you would look up the greek interpretation of the word salvation, which means "a deliverance". There is an eternal deliverance, and there is a timely deliverance. Learning the difference between the two would eliminate the possibility of contradicting scriptures. If you are numbered among those that the Father gave to his Son to die for and pay for their sins, Jesus said you will be raised up at the last day. (eternal deliverance). there is no sin that you will ever commit that will nullify your eternal inheritance. When you commit a sin you will be chastened by God and lose your fellowship with him until you repent (timely deliverance), because God will not fellowship with sin.