The need for spiritual gifts

This is faulty reasoning. The author of Hebrews says that when the gospel was first preached among his readers by them that first heard the Lord, it was accompanied by signs and wonders. We also see in Acts this happening in Jerusalem. But it happened again in Samaria (and we do not know that Philip the evangelist or Stephen ever knew the Lord before the resurrection). And it happened again in Joppa, and it happened in Ephesus and Malta and elsewhere. And we read of gifts being given to the church.

The passage does not say what you think it is saying.

The title of apostle, etc. is a controversial issue and continuationists have different views on this. But be that as it may, you can walk into many churches where you may actually witness prophesying.

This is also something you should be careful about with your broad-brushing here, because Jesus warned those who accused the Holy Spirit by Whom He was casting out demons of being a devil, that whoever speaks a word against the Holy Ghost will not be forgiven in this age nor in the age to come. Paul also commands, "Despise not prophesying. Prove all things. Hold fast to that which is good." If you reject prophesying out of hand-- even if it is because of your (man-made) theological presuppositions-- you can be setting yourself up to disobey the command 'despise not prophesyings. Obeying the word of God is more important than your doctrinal speculations.

There are many means through which we read in scripture that God chooses to heal. Answering prayer is one of them. James 5 is a wonderful passage that actually contains a promise of healing if the conditions are met. The elders must pray the prayer of faith. But there is no indication that James 5 (which might have been written quite early) was intended to supplant other scripture on healing, for example I Corinthians 12 which says that gifts of healing are among the gifts the Spirit distributes to the church.

I haven't had a chance to read it. I do not know if you have ever heard of evangelical theologian Craig Keener or read his Bible commentary work. He started writing a footnote on miracles, and it turned into a 1200+ page book entitled 'Miracles.' It argues against Hume's argument that miracles are not real because they go against normative human experience by reporting the fact that numerous Christians have reported miracles in their experience. It contains numerous historical and modern examples.

You should be careful about basing doctrine on your experience (or lack thereof in this case). If you have not seen miracles or those around you have not experienced them, that does not mean they don't happen. If they are rather rare, that does not invalidate the teaching of I Corinthians 12 that the Spirit gifts individuals as He wills. If the Spirit did not will to gift an individual in this way for 100 years, you have no right to say that He no longer does so and to blindly accuse someone He does so gift of being a charlatan when you hear of the miracle based on your conclusions based on your own experiences. Scripture is not the servant of your experiences and neither is the Holy Spirit.

Quote ANYONE AT ALL who advocates this. When you realize that you can't, because NOBODY does, you might realize the silliness of your position.

6 Since we have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, each of us is to exercise them accordingly: if prophecy, according to the proportion of his faith; 7 if service, in his serving; or he who teaches, in his teaching; 8 or he who exhorts, in his exhortation; he who gives, with liberality; he who leads, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness. Romans 12: 6-8

12 Now about the gifts of the Spirit, brothers and sisters, I do not want you to be uninformed. 2 You know that when you were pagans, somehow or other you were influenced and led astray to mute idols. 3 Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

4 There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit distributes them. 5 There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 6 There are different kinds of working, but in all of them and in everyone it is the same God at work.

7 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8 To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.

And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, and those with gifts of healing, helping, administration, and various tongues. I Corinthians 12:28

And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Ephesians 4:11

What a strange thing to say.
This thread come from a surreal view, as if some giftedness may come from nothing and nowhere.

The silliness of a lie or the truth?

Don't be daft. Quote anyone who claims that prophecies delivered today are intended by God to be added to Scripture.

Understanding the meaning of words takes away doctrinal speculations. The words prophecy, prophesy, prophets and apostles have all been changed to reflect the oral traditions of men. Therefore making it hard to understand what the Spirit is saying to the churches

Not adding to prophecy is not despising prophecy but is limiting it to His prophecy or declarations .Not private revelations as private interpretations. . . our personal commentaries. We have the whole council of God. There is nothing missing by which we could know Him more adequately .

Do what some claim today have the same infallible value and could be added as a equal as a way of confirming God has spoken as a sign? or are there no such thing as a sign gift. Spiritual gifts not seen, yes .Sign gifts no way.

If a person hears the gospel they hear prophecy.

The title apostles simply means "sent ones" with no other meaning added. .If you feel God has a interest in you offering His interpretation the gospel. . . then you are a apostle who prophecies by declaring the exiting complete will .

Yes, when the apostle Peter blasphemed the name of the Son of man, Jesus in Mathew 16 he was forgiven of his blasphemy .Today seeing the Son of man, Jesus is long gone . . . blasphemy against the unseen Holy Spirit is not forgivable.

If you have difficulty understanding then there are other brothers and sisters in Christ to help you. I will pray for you.

Paul's command to not despise prophetic utterances is still in effect. The Spirit is still at work in this age and still moves people to speak as he wills.

Are you turning over a new leaf?
Read II Corinthians 2. We know God by the Spirit.

Maybe Google translate could help with the more complicated sentences.

The idea that when the canon is completed, God would stop doing miracles or prophesying is just not something the New Testament teaches. That interpretation does not fit what Paul says in i Corinthians 13, though some have tried to argue it. The apostles' understanding of Biblical mysteries then was not like a child's compared to ours now.

Your communication is just weird. I have posted that usually those who use the term 'sign gifts' don't believe the gifts are for today. They try to put all the gifts that do not fit into their paradigm into one category 'sign gift.' You post as if you are disagreeing with a belief of mine about 'sign gifts' after I posted that. It doesn't make much sense.

And I would have to guess what Garee's unique spin on what 'sign gift' means because it is likely it is rather unique.

Again, Paul referred to the I Corinthians 12 gifts as manifestations of the Spirit. It is obvious that many of these gifts could have been 'seen', even with the physical eye.

You shouldn't be opposed to prophesying then. If someone makes a mistake while sharing the Gospel, is he a false prophet in your opinion?

Then you should not be opposed to the modern use of the term.

I'm not sure if its a mispelled word or not, but I do not get what you are saying here.



Yes, when the apostle Peter blasphemed the name of the Son of man, Jesus in Mathew 16 he was forgiven of his blasphemy .Today seeing the Son of man, Jesus is long gone . . . blasphemy against the unseen Holy Spirit is not forgivable.[/QUOTE]

Good to know then Gods word is complete and able to do all we need. So what purpose do these prophecies serve?

Apostolic age ended age of grace begun. It is finished and Christ is seated at the right hand of the Father. We are in the times of the Gentiles.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

I don't hold to your dispensational view. With regard to prophecy, your mind is closed, and I don't see any point in cracking it open, lest it be permanently damaged.

I realize there is a butchered interpretation of I Corinthians 13, which would lead one to put oneself above the apostles in understanding. It also does not fit with I Corinthians 1:7.

The apostles just did leave us a teaching that the gift of prophecy would cease after the canon was complete. The Bible does not teach that the Bible is all we need. We need it to to be complete, but we cannot be complete without having the things it says we need. We need faith, water baptism, and a lot of other things that the Bible teaches about that are not the Bible. The teaching of Christ was about the Spirit who would lead into all truth. Revealing the scriptures was a part of the ministry of the Spirit.

If the Bible were all a man needs, then the atheist with a Bible on the shelf would have all he needs. If the Bible were all a Christian needs, then we would not need to gather as a church to encourage one another and fellow or to partake in the Lord's Supper. We need the stuff the Bible says we need. Regarding members of the body of Christ who operating in a variety of spiritual gifts, we read Paul's comment in I Corinthians 12 against one part of the body saying to another, "I have no need of thee."

And where does the Bible teach that the gift of prophecy would cease for 'the times of the Gentiles?' What is supposed to happen after the rapture? Does prophecy revive again? In the book of Revelation, there are two witnesses who prophesy and perform miracles. Do you think these gifts revive for them? If so, that doesn't fit very well with your interpretation of I Corinthians 13. If prophecy ceased, would you have it revive for the two witnesses. It makes no sense.

That's the danger of getting doctrine from some arbitrary ideas put together by the men who make dispenational books and charts. The idea of prophecy ceasing and reviving just doesn't have a basis in scripture.

I was raised dispensationalist, btw, as many Pentecostals are. The teaching did have the unbiblically supported pre-trib rapture, but they did not have to make up doctrines about gifts ceasing and restarting with no scripture to back it up.

I think there is a tendency to associate the 'talents' of the parable with the ability because in English, the word used to translate that type of money is the same word we use for 'talent'. It's talking about denarii. If the KJV folks had said dinars or denarri, would anyone immediately think of singing and public speaking skills?

I think the parable applies to our natural talents and abilities, along with all those other things like actual money, influence, etc. that we have in life.

Yes, i would think so presidente, as, let's face it, i don't believe that Jesus was exhorting us to be financially savvy or economically astute. Just for the record, outside of the main message as to warning not to squander our natural abilities or resources that we have at our disposal, I believe that there's also an element of refraining from frugality, as in being too conservative and not adventurous enough (for God loves a cheerful giver). Appreciating and exploiting one's talents or privileges is one thing, denying or disregarding them is another, but being selfish and covetous with them is also another dimension that one must consider when attempting to be prudent, responsible and judicious with God's generosity.

Thanks...I can always use help but hat was not my point .

The point is God according to his signified tongue he has made it difficult and has given us instruction how to rightly divide parables . . Purposely hiding the spiritual understanding from those who walk after the temporal things seen. (what they call sign gifts)

Parables aid in walking by faith after the unseen eternal .Its why Christ spoke not without them.

The living word is still effecting a faith in those who do believe .We have the power of faith in us it is simply not of us.

Yes still revealing his wrath daily from heaven . So yes not adding to the perfect. There are no laws missing by which we could know him more adequately. Why would a person go above that which is written?

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Thanks, sorry for the extra work.

No one said he is not performing miracles. We are still here and new has not come.That's a miracle showing his long suffering. .God is greater than the miracle he performs .

He simply is not recording them. He warns of those who say I had a dream or out of the body experience or near death. Along with them who look to widen his authority he sends a strong delusion to those who need more that he has revealed so they can continue walking by sight after a illusion created in their fleshly mind.

When Jesus in Mathew 4 was confronted with those kind of ilusions of things not there ,he would say as it is written .Three times in a row he pronounced judgment on sign as a wonder seekers .

Spiritual gifts not seen are used today with those who walk by the faith of God. No such thing as sign gift, The two words working together do not create a doctrine coming from God. Prophecy as it is written for believers

Signs are things seen. Things some use to confirm for self edification (self righteous.) Its not that rare. Jesus called them a evil generation (no faith) no sign is given.

John 4:48Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe. (exercise or work out faith )

John 6:30They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?

No confirmation according to the eye.

The outcome can be seen as signs that follow but they are not the source .Some who saw the working of the gospel when it was preached attribute the work to the apostles. Butt the unseen power of the gospel gave glory to our unseen father in heaven.

Some attributed the work to the apostles making them god's in the likeness of men . The laying on their hands simply was a request that God would lay on his unseen hand giving power for that man to walk by faith. . hearing the gospel .

And there they preached the gospel. And there sat a certain man at Lystra, impotent in his feet, being a cripple from his mother's womb, who never had walked:The same heard Paul speak: who stedfastly beholding him, and perceiving that he had faith to be healed, Said with a loud voice, Stand upright on thy feet. And he leaped and walked. And when the people saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in the speech of Lycaonia, The gods are come down to us in the likeness of men. Acts14:7-11

No a false prophet saying thus says the Lord knowing he is no longer bringing any new revelations are false prophets. Our private interpretation can be falseThere is a learning curve

If you beleive you are called to defend the gospel then you would be a apostle. The word simply means "sent one". New meaning have ben added, destroying the purpose of the word apostle. and others join in. . Like apostolic time period, or apostolic succession.

And where does the Bible teach that the gift of prophecy would cease for 'the times of the Gentiles?' What is supposed to happen after the rapture? Does prophecy revive again? In the book of Revelation, there are two witnesses who prophesy and perform miracles. Do you think these gifts revive for them? If so, that doesn't fit very well with your interpretation of I Corinthians 13. If prophecy ceased, would you have it revive for the two witnesses. It makes no sense.

Click to expand...

I would offer. It does not say that the living abiding word of God will cease. But rather any new revelation... they will cease.. We have the perfect with no laws missing by which we could know God more adequately.

The two witnesses are all things written the law and the prophets (sola scriptura) .God does not accept the witness of men .He uses men seen the temporal to represent the unseen eternal .

Moses is used to represent the law of God that kills. While Elijah... the Spirit and power of the law of faith, the gospel heals.

Together as one they make the perfect law that does work in us quickening the soul giving us simply ones his understanding .So that then we can seek after Him .

The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple.The statutes of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes.The fear of the Lord is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether. More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb. Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward. Psalms 14:7-11

Why go above that which is written as the dual testimony of God ?

Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them

1 John 5:8-10 King James Version (KJV) And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

1 John 5:9-10 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

It does not make the man who brings the witness a liar but the God who moved him .

Its like God when he spoke to Samuel . . Its not you Samuel seen the temporal that they are rejecting as King but God himself the eternal one .They are rejecting his un seen witness that does work in us to both will and perform his good pleasure.

Here's the root of your misunderstanding. You think that every word that God ever spoke to anyone is recorded in Scripture. Nothing in Scripture tells us that, and in fact, Scripture itself tells us that is not the case.

Your view is based on a fallacious misunderstanding of the gift and its handling. Despite being told the truth repeatedly, you stick to your straw-man caricature. You can't quote anyone who advocates for additions to Scripture, but you stubbornly believe "they" do.

The gift of prophecy is not about "laws by which we could know God more". It's about God speaking intimately and personally to His children in their particular circumstances. Words that you speak to your wife are not spoken to anyone else; similarly, a word that God speaks to me is not spoken to anyone else. It isn't intended by God to be "scripture".

Please, stop your gross mischaracterization. If you're going to criticize the present-day operation of the gift, at least do so from a correct understanding of it.

Simply you have misplaced Israel in your reasoning. You claim butchering and others see you as omitting scripture. You do not see 1 Cor 13:8 as soon to occur while 1 Cor 14 is a present situation. Do not despise now for it will soon end.

I do not expect you to have a correct understanding of end times events because you have shunned the growth God provides to His children.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Gifts are given by God, talents are what you already have, and everyone has a talent for something. Thats why people say some people have hidden talents.

Not everyone is gifted that depends on whether God wants to give you a gift, and He wont always give people the same ones.

So the first example in OP that say someone is good at speaking thats a talent, not a gift. Its a gift if God had opened someones mouth to speak who wasnt talented, and out came His word. You could be talented and speak His word too, but only the gifting will anoint them.

That is my understanding of it. Otherwise only talented people who worked really hard with their talents would be in church or only rich people as they have more talents than anyone else naturally but thats not the case.

Seriously? Just where do talents come from? You cannot order them from Walmart of purchase them on E-bay.

You are just putting the spook in spooky.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

No, I think that every word God spoke and wanted recorded is recorded. Not one more or one less.

Here's the root of your misunderstanding. You refuse to mix faith the unseen eternal in what you see or hear coming from the scriptures but rather trust in the things seen
It would seem you are seeing no difference between the things seen, the temporal and that not seen the eternal .

Spiritual gifts not sign gifts. No such thing as a sign gift. The two words combined do not make up a doctrine of God. But rather a oral tradition of men

If they are saying thus says the lord, I had a vision or dream, he iscity, no wait there he is in the country. The scriptures lovingly commands to believe not.

You cannot answer the question in respects to the law of prophecy as tongues . what does the sign of tongues represent beleive in the prophecy or unbeliever .And yet for all that they still are in unbelief.

The gift of prophecy is not about "laws by which we could know God more". It's about God speaking intimately and personally to His children in their particular circumstances.

The gift of prophecy is the loving law of God called the gospel . It contains no philosophical opinions of men.

God is speaking intimately and personally to His children in their particular circumstances. He is simply not recording them to confirm some work they have performed as he did work in them to both will and do His good pleasure..

Its how we can try the spirits to see if the are inspired from God above or men earthly. Any thus says the lord that came after the Bible was completed we automatically know it is not of God . Like the book Koran by the false prophet Mohamad .Simply a private interpretation of man inspired from earth. Not a witness of God.

Whose correct understanding? The ones that say parables are not one of the many manners of prophecy and "yet for all that" they still refuse to believe prophecy in exchange for a sign against them?

In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.1 Corihtinans 14:21-22