Multiple Heavens? (

(Not to get confused with the Mormon theology of 3 sections of Heaven)

Genesis 1 New International Version (NIV)
The Beginning
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

In my research I have not thought much on the idea that Satan even though being casted out of Heaven, in many different times still has dealings with God in the Heavenly realm.

It came to my attention that Heavens is plural. The Hebrew word is shamayim and im is the plural ending.

We know there is different realms of Hell. So there possibly is different realms of Heaven.



This was ancient Jewish understanding of the Heavenly and spirit realms. The physical world was the circle broken dotted line above the moon and sun. The open gaps was what they believed is how Angel's entered the physical realm. While sheol was the grave and the great deep was the realms of Hell.

Not really theologically set on a certain belief with Heavenly realms but it is a interesting concept.

Scripture mentions three "heavens". Two are mentioned specifically in Genesis 1; the third is implicit, and is clearly mentioned elsewhere. The first is what we call the atmosphere, which is where birds and other flying creatures are found. The second is what we call 'outer space', which is where the stars and planets are found. The third is what we normally call 'heaven' today, and is the place where spiritual beings are found. Paul wrote of 'a man' who visited the third heaven.

I agree, it is an interesting concept. And the idea of multiple Heaven's isn't exclusive to the Judeo-Christian faith.

Since our faith is grounded in Judaism you might enjoy this. (I get criticized for posting links to non-bias sources. The reason I do this is so that we can all avail ourselves of the opportunity to learn more than we think we already know.)
Where does the idea of seven heavens come from? Is the idea of a seventh heaven biblical?

(excerpted)
Judaism's Seven Heavens

The Hebrew word for heaven, shamayim, is only ever plural. Different traditions have different numbers of heavens; the Jewish mystical text, the Zohar, claims there are 390 heavens and 70,000 worlds. As science progresses, the understanding of the seven heavens is becoming less literal and more allegorical, as a description of how God interacts with His creation.

Mystical Judaism says followers can make their way through the heavens if they pass certain tests and know the names of the guardian angels. At each level, the mystic is allowed to receive particular wisdom. Some Jewish scholars say Paul's trip to the "third heaven" is an example (2 Corinthians 12:2-4). Legend says when Moses went to Mt. Sinai, God opened up all the heavens and let the Israelites see in (Exodus 19:10-11).

The characteristics of the seven heavens vary with source and have been discussed by the Rabbis of the Talmud for ages. The apocryphal book 2 Enoch (written, perhaps, shortly before the fall of the Temple in AD 70) gives a great amount of detail. But the book can't be a true account, since it was written nearly 4000 years after the biblical Enoch was taken by God. The story may have been adapted from Zoroastrianism.

Originally, 2 Enoch mentioned seven heavens; it was later changed to ten, possibly by the Eastern Orthodox Church in the 7th Century. What each of the heavens contain or represent vary depending with the teller. The story claims that Enoch walked the heavens with the angels, returned to earth and told his family, then was taken to heaven again (Genesis 5:24). The heavens he visited were:

Vilon ("curtain"): a curtain which is rolled over the earth at nighttime to block the sun (Isaiah 40:22); contains the atmosphere, minor stars, snow and dew; abode of Adam and Eve; governed by Gabriel; called curtain or veil because it veils or hides the other six levels; represented by the moon

Raqi'a/Raki'a ("expanse," "canopy"): possibly refers to the frozen canopy over the earth before the Flood (Genesis 1:7-8; Deuteronomy 11:11); Moses visited Paradise here to receive the Ten Commandments; fallen angels are imprisoned here for marrying human women (Genesis 6:4); dwelling place of souls awaiting judgment including "men of renown," apostates, tyrants; called expanse because it's where the sun and planets dwell (Genesis 1:14, 17); represented by Mercury

Shehaquim/Shehaqim/Shehakim ("clouds"): Eden and Tree of Life, the mill that produces manna; also includes paradise and hell/hades (Psalm 78:23-24); represented by Venus

Zebul ("habitation"): stratosphere, sun, moon, and "four great stars," including celestial mechanics; dwelling of the winds; called habitation because it's where the New Jerusalem with its temple is (Isaiah 63:15); represented by the sun

Ma'on ("refuge"): home to "Grigori" — fallen angels who mourn for their brothers in Raqi'a; hell/Gehenna; Michael or possibly Samael presides; filled with ministering angels who sing by night; called refuge because it's where most of the angels reside; represented by Mars

Makhon/Machon/Makon ("city," "established place"): home for angels in charge of nature's cycles and good governing systems of the world; angels who write men's actions in books; governed by Samael, a dark servant of God; storage place of rain, snow, and hail (Deuteronomy 28:12); called city because it's where the City of Angels resides; represented by Jupiter

Araboth/Aravot ("deserts"): also known as the 10th heaven; Throne of Glory and God dwell here as well as unborn human souls, Seraphim, Cherubim, justice, righteousness, souls of the righteous, and ineffable light (Psalm 68:5); called desert because it has no moisture and no air; God also said to be above the seventh heaven; represented by Saturn

It's possible that Judaism's belief in multiple heavens could have been influenced by Zoroastrianism, but it's unclear how Zoroastrianism influenced Judaism — or if it was the other way around. Jews taken to Babylon in exile who did not return to Jerusalem would have been exposed to Zoroastrian laymen. It's possible Judaism got the idea of multiple heavens at this time. In fact, the word "paradise," one of many words used to reflect heaven, comes from the Persian for "enclosed park or garden."

Judaism might also have been influenced by the ancient Babylonian tales. Perhaps Abraham brought the mythology with him from Ur. The parallel affiliation with celestial bodies indicates a closer relation to Babylonian stories than Zoroastrian.

1Cor.12:2 I knew a MAN IN CHRIST above fourteen years ago,whether in the body,I cannot tell; or out of the body,I cannot tell: God knoweth; such a one was caught up to the third heaven.
3 And I knew such a man,whether in the body,or out of the body,I cannot tell: God knoweth;
4 How that he was caught up into paradise,and heard unspeakable words,which is not lawful for a man to utter

Where does Genesis mention two heavens? Is there a dual form in there somewhere? Maybe in the LXX?

I've heard the theory that demons are in the second heaven, too, which might put the sky and space in the first heaven.

I'm not sure. Paul wrote about 'a man' being caught up into the third heaven, whether in the body or out of the body he did not know.

Genesis 1:

8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day. ...

9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.

14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,

20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

Unless you hold to a flat-earth view, you will note that birds don't inhabit the same plane as stars and planets.

Yes but two of those are in the material realm. Do you think there is different realms of the spiritual as some people believe?

I can speculate as well as the next person, but I'll go with what Scripture tells us; that there are three. Whether there are another two spiritual heavens is unknown to us. I suspect not though.

According to Scripture there are THREE HEAVENS: (1) the atmospheric heaven or first heaven (also called "the air"), (2) outer space (the starry heaven or second heaven), and (3) the third heaven (God's Heaven where His throne is set), wherein is the New Jerusalem.

Satan was cast out of the third heaven with all his evil angels, who now inhabit "the air". Thus he is called "the prince of the power of the air". At the same time Satan was never allowed back into God's Heaven, which would imply that in Job all the *sons of God* met with God in the starry heaven. Angels are also referred to as *stars*.

You should safely disregard all Jewish concepts and fables, and stick with the New Testament revelation.

I think that this debate may have become unnecessarily protracted due to the confusion between archaic terminology and contemporary. Yes, Genesis 1 uses the term 'Heaven' for 2 different realms, and elsewhere in the Bible the word 'Heaven' has a third sense. And I believe that it is the 3rd usage of the word that RoughSoul was asking about. In other words, using contemporary language and thought, there are not 3 heavens referred to in the Bible, but 1. There is the earth's atmosphere, there is outer space, and there is the spiritual realm where God and the angels inhabit. And it is this latter domain that we today refer to as heaven. As Dino246 said, speculation is not wise, for I believe that all things are written in the bible on a need-to-know basis (we presently see through a glass darkly). If it's not explicitly taught, it's for a reason, leave it alone. And with Dino246 again, in my mind, there is only one heaven that we earthlings need to acknowledge, and need to concern ourselves with, everything else is frivolous and misguided speculation.

Good observation.

That is a good explanation. Thanks.

If the whole thing is 'heaven' up to the edge of the universe, if there is any, then wouldn't that work?

I'm not sure what you mean by "work". Paul mentions a third heaven, which means there two others. If atmosphere and space are together only one heaven, then there is a second heaven implied but not discussed in Scripture.

Whether you are inclined towards the Ball Earth model or the Flat Earth model, the following still holds true (is the same for both):

1st heaven - the atmosphere; where birds fly

2nd heaven - where sun, moon, and stars are

3rd heaven - beyond those, where the throne of God is

6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

~ 'firmament' means "expanse" and divides the waters

7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

~ waters above the firmament
~ waters below the firmament

8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

~ 'Heaven' is a name God gave the "expanse" between the waters above it and the waters below it.

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14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,

~ God set the Sun, Moon, and Stars in the "expanse" that He called 'Heaven'.

Therefore - the Sun, Moon, and Stars are in 'Heaven' (as defined in these verses).

18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.

19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

~ The birds fly above the earth in the "expanse" that God called 'Heaven'.

Therefore - the birds fly in 'Heaven' (as defined in these verses).

I now refer you back to my previous post...

Of it could be the first heaven is sky and space, the second heaven is a spiritual realm where demons or principalities hang out and through which angels travel, and the third heaven is where God's throne is. I do not think we have enough information to say for sure.

I have read that the 'firmament', raqia, refers to something solid. They were saying it meant a dome, that Genesis depicts the sun and moon on this side of the dome, and waters above it. As I recall, the linguistic evidence for the meaning of raqia as something solid seemed a bit inconclusive. Maybe a triliteral root in another language having a similar meaning. My memory is fuzzy on this.

How well does the idea of the firmament being solid fit into the phrase "and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven" ... ???

Can "where the birds fly" be solid?

Christians are to base their beliefs upon divine revelation. Contemporary language and thought has nothing to do with it. If the Bible says there are three heavens, and you oppose that, you are simply calling God a liar.

Pretty solid invisible barrier a firmament that keeps at bay the -454f coldness of space, the firmament which is produced by a molten watery ball of iron and other elements within the earths core, thus a magnetic electrified firmament that surrounds the earth protects it from the harshness of space