Christianity......what I have learned on here.

And there in lies the problem. "My own way." " The Divine", being Divine logically gave the Divine way of doing it, and don't find the way of the selfish to be very acceptable.

Dibby53, look around you, do you really believe that the universe and all it contains, these conversations, relationships and emotions are just by random chance? At least admit that clearly there is a devil. Nothing can explain the atrocities, self-annihilating decadence and debauchery, bigotries and wickedness committed by man, by any sense of rational, these acts are entirely irrational and again, self-destructive. For even the simplest of beasts don't indiscriminately destroy themselves, or act in such a ludicrous and senseless manner in the way that man does (spiritual being). Where does this depravity and insanity come from, not from stardust and protoplasm. Clearly there is a spiritual warfare at hand, and thus there is a spirit in man that can completely override any natural sensibilities that one would expect from a creature simply following the laws of nature.
Man is way too complex to be understood from a secular standpoint, he defies all the laws that nature would dictate and demand, whether it be for good, or for bad. He is the only creature created in the image of God, that came to know, and that only can comprehend, both good and evil.
That should be apparent enough.
...you do take a lot for granted!

I have learned alot. It's just that if Christianity is like some people say it is then I am fine without it. You say above that "those who reject God's gift of salvation will burn for eternity" . What sort of "gift"is that??! That is no better than a highwayman who says "Your money or your life!".

But the doctrine you and I have to absolutely agree on is contained in the first four books of the new testament.

1. God writes books. Unfortunately it is not always that clear. Hence, the arguments, even amongst believers.
2. God loves everyone; but if you worship the wrong God he will command your execution and favours certain ethnic groups and people.
3.God wants us to fear him, but love him at the same time. And if we don't love him, we are condemned.
4. The right beliefs and thoughts in our heads are more important than being kind; beliefs will save you, kindness won't.
5. The "Good news" of the gospel is not that good. Since most are condemned.
6. Everyone I love and care for who has the wrong beliefs and has died is going to burn and suffer for eternity. God will helpfully wipe my memory of them.
7. If anyone has a different major opinion within Christianity it is perfectly acceptable to shun them.
8. Deviation from what is perceived to be the "truth" will not be tolerated.
9. No one can do anything good, or be good before God without the correct beliefs. Since people are basically depraved, sinful and anything they do is "dirty rags".
10. Since Christians are saved, have the holy spirit and are God's beloved children and now have the source of all goodness and love within them, then they are living the most beautiful, loving and blessed lives that can be imagined. They are a real beacon of goodness in the world in a way that non-believers are not........or are they??

WHO CAN KNOW THE MIND OF ELOHIM/GOD?

I have learned alot. It's just that if Christianity is like some people say it is then I am fine without it. You say above that "those who reject God's gift of salvation will burn for eternity" . What sort of "gift"is that??! That is no better than a highwayman who says "Your money or your life!".

I wouldn't make a very good devil worshipper anyway. I mean, going out at midnight on a full moon to perform rituals?! I,m in my pyjamas by 7pm ready for a cup of tea and an episode from my favourite box sets.

Pascals wager

I have learned alot. It's just that if Christianity is like some people say it is then I am fine without it. You say above that "those who reject God's gift of salvation will burn for eternity" . What sort of "gift"is that??! That is no better than a highwayman who says "Your money or your life!".

You assume I,m a secular atheist. I am not.

I have learned alot. It's just that if Christianity is like some people say it is then I am fine without it. You say above that "those who reject God's gift of salvation will burn for eternity" . What sort of "gift"is that??! That is no better than a highwayman who says "Your money or your life!".

1. God writes books. Unfortunately it is not always that clear. Hence, the arguments, even amongst believers.
2. God loves everyone; but if you worship the wrong God he will command your execution and favours certain ethnic groups and people.
3.God wants us to fear him, but love him at the same time. And if we don't love him, we are condemned.
4. The right beliefs and thoughts in our heads are more important than being kind; beliefs will save you, kindness won't.
5. The "Good news" of the gospel is not that good. Since most are condemned.
6. Everyone I love and care for who has the wrong beliefs and has died is going to burn and suffer for eternity. God will helpfully wipe my memory of them.
7. If anyone has a different major opinion within Christianity it is perfectly acceptable to shun them.
8. Deviation from what is perceived to be the "truth" will not be tolerated.
9. No one can do anything good, or be good before God without the correct beliefs. Since people are basically depraved, sinful and anything they do is "dirty rags".
10. Since Christians are saved, have the holy spirit and are God's beloved children and now have the source of all goodness and love within them, then they are living the most beautiful, loving and blessed lives that can be imagined. They are a real beacon of goodness in the world in a way that non-believers are not........or are they??

Most people on here want me to have a "personal" relationship with God. There is nothing more personal than experiencing God in my own way. If I need to do it your way then it's not very personal!

So sorry you have come to these conclusions dibby none of them reflect Jesus or the word of God. What is it that you are seeking? If it's perfection you missed it by 2000 yrs.
I have to admit there is a work going on, it is in fact in God's garden it's called the perfecting of the saints. It's a process that will take the rest of our lives.
We get it wrong, we get over come by emotion, in truth we come short on a lot of things but then again God's word says that all have come short.
Do you believe in Jesus's assessment of you that your a sinner in need of a savior?
That no matter what good things you have done you will not achive heaven? Or are you looking for a sign where none will be given?
Are you looking for forgiveness or answers? Are you looking with your eyes or your heart?
Are you broken and in need ? Or are you good to go and just want your ears tickled.
God does not speak to man's logic nor does he dumb it down because of emotion. He speaks to man's heart with tried truth and promise. Because of this it may be foolishness to some . Where do you stand?

Thankyou for your kind words. I think "pathetic and pathological" are some new insults I can add to my repertoire of labels from some of the people on here.

Yes, you are right. I will spend more time in my garden. In fact I love gardens ( I even work in a garden).....so beautiful and peaceful. Places where I can reflect and contemplate life. A place where the flowers and trees, the singing birds, buzzing bees and wonderful seasons speak to my soul in a way that no brow beating "believer" ever could.

Imagine YOU creating dirt. You taking that dirt and forming a person with the dirt YOU created. Then YOU breathe YOUR Spirit and life into that dirt, and put that dirt with the life YOU created in a beautiful, full of goodness, flawless, diseaseless, deathless, Garden, and set a test for that dirt to see if that dirt will love and obey DIBBY. The dirt fails, and every piece of dirt that comes from the original dirt is now defective.

You could just eternally destroy that dirt, create OTHER dirt, and start over. Problem is, YOU LOVE THAT DIRT. But YOU, YOURSELF, being perfect, know a debt has incurred that MUST be paid. Or there is no such thing as justice.

Socrates understood this unsolvable problem. He said, "It may be that a Deity can forgive sins, but I do not see how".

But wait!! YOU see a way! YOU, DIBBY, can become DIRT, suffer, be tortured, and pay ALL the debt for ALL the other dirt, by dying for them in the same DIRT vessel, only YOU will have to perfectly obey, which you know you can!

And ALL you ask of the other dirt vessels is that they believe YOU died, spilled YOUR Blood for them, and rose from the grave!!!

WOO HOO! praise DIBBBY!!!!!!!

What!!!!!??? YOU find out that there are many that love their sin so much, that trample on YOUR Blood Sacrifice, erect a god of their own making, usually themselves, that they actually reject YOUR offer!!

What do YOU DIBBY DO WITH THEM NOW!?

Please answer that question.

Ok. I love them, but they have rejected my offer. Since it is not their belief I want, but their love, then I must wait until the love is freely offered to me. I cannot threaten people into a loving relationship with me, since people cannot genuinely love me if they are afraid of me.
Since I created these beings then I,m responsible. I know they will question and go their own way. That is fine. Since wisdom and knowledge are only gained this way. I,m not interested in them confessing sins...I,m interested in them understanding sin and how it robs them of their true beauty that I created them with. Love and knowledge create wisdom....and I want them to be philosophers ( lovers of wisdom). I invite them into relationship with me and together we can bring out the best in each other.
But I won't threaten anyone to love me.

So sorry you have come to these conclusions dibby none of them reflect Jesus or the word of God. What is it that you are seeking? If it's perfection you missed it by 2000 yrs.
I have to admit there is a work going on, it is in fact in God's garden it's called the perfecting of the saints. It's a process that will take the rest of our lives.
We get it wrong, we get over come by emotion, in truth we come short on a lot of things but then again God's word says that all have come short.
Do you believe in Jesus's assessment of you that your a sinner in need of a savior?
That no matter what good things you have done you will not achive heaven? Or are you looking for a sign where none will be given?
Are you looking for forgiveness or answers? Are you looking with your eyes or your heart?
Are you broken and in need ? Or are you good to go and just want your ears tickled.
God does not speak to man's logic nor does he dumb it down because of emotion. He speaks to man's heart with tried truth and promise. Because of this it may be foolishness to some . Where do you stand?

I see in your profile that you're a self-proclaimed Gnostic. The word Gnostic connotes "special knowledge". What special knowledge do you purport to have that the rest of us don't? What is the source of your special knowledge and why do you believe it to be true? Finally, how do you apply Gnosticism in everyday life?

You missed the point.

They CAN'T be saved unless they ARE IN HIM! This is not about threats. It's about paying a debt that must be paid. They can either pay that debt themselves, the price being eternally separated from God, all His goodness and well being. A state in which we have no capacity to understand.

OR, they can be safe IN HIM who paid THEIR sin debt!

Threats aren't in the equation. They are interpreted as threats because the NATURAL byproduct of refusing the ONLY cure, is to be forever paying that debt yourself.