James 2v21 (worth its own thread I think)

James 2v21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?

Q1) Did he offer Isaac on the altar BEFORE or AFTER he believed in God?
Q2) If after, how could Abraham be justified by Works when he offered Isaac on the Altar?

Hello @Chris1975, Abraham's faith was .. justified/seen/demonstrated/proven true .. by his works (for his sake/for the sake of others ...
cf 2 Corinthians 13:5, IOW, for all who cannot see the heart of a man .. like God alone can).

~Deut

Good response above and well compiled. But I would pose a further question or two in relation to this....

1) What is your understanding of the word Justification.....?
2) Is it not only God who justifies, and not men.....?

To understand what James meant in his chapter 2, you need to recognize that the letter attributed to James was the very first NT book written, way before any of the Gospels, and before the events in Acts 15.

James believed that Jews, who believe in Jesus, still needed to be zealous of the Law. (Acts 21:20)

But James also agreed that Gentiles who believe in Jesus, are not to be under the Law. (Acts 21:25)

Hello again Chris, "justification", like most words, has a number of different meanings, so getting at the meaning in a particular case depends principally upon the context that it's used in. Biblically, this can mean context that is localized (passage, chapter, book) and/or Biblical context in general.

When God "justifies" someone in the Bible, it's often in reference to salvation/to His ~declaring~ someone justified or just in His sight (saved), and that's something that God alone can do, of course.

However, being "justified" can also mean to be vindicated/proven correct about something that was done or said (for instance, when someone ~claims~ to have become a Christian, it's the fruit/that which accompanies or results from their salvation, their works, their lifestyle choices, etc., that vindicate/prove (to themselves and to others) that their claim of becoming a Christian is true (or not). IOW, we show our faith (which cannot be seen) by what we say and do (which can be).

Merry Christmas

~Deut

"For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God." Romans 4:2

Another clue in helping to understand James 2... that Abraham was called the friend of God BY MEN, per 2 Chronicles 20:7 ("...Abraham Thy friend...")

AFTER
He DEMONSTRATED that he was justified by grace through faith by the sacrifice of Isaac (which did not go through because of divine intervention). So in the eyes of men he was justified (deemed righteous) because of his obedience.

But before God, it was his faith through which he was justified -- ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD AND IT WAS IMPUTED/RECKONED/COUNTED FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Gen 17:1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.
Gen 17:2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.

Gen 22:1 And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am.
Gen 22:2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.

Abraham believed in God before he went to sacrifice Isaac for it was God that told him to go sacrifice Issac.

Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Jas 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

James said a person is justified by works, and not by faith only, and a person cannot ignore it, and they cannot say that James was speaking to Jews only for Paul and John say the same thing for James is speaking according to someone having the Spirit for it is the New Testament.

Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
Jas 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

James is speaking about works that has to do with loving people that if you have the means to help them with food and clothing and you do not do it then you do not have faith because you do not have the proper perspective of the kingdom of God and His operation on earth.

1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

Paul says the same thing as James that if they do not have charity, love in action, works, then they are nothing.

1Ti 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
1Ti 6:8 And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.

1Ti 6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

Paul says if they preach God blesses with money and material things for their wants above their needs to withdraw yourselves from them for He only blesses us with our needs.

For the love of money is the root of all evil for it neglects the poor and needy which is the operation of God on earth that we love one another, and if they love money then they erred from the faith.

1Jn 3:17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
1Jn 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

John said if they do not have charity then the love of God does not dwell in them, so do not love in word, neither in tongue, but in deed and in truth, works.

Love is only valid in works and not in tongue only, and we go by the 2 greatest laws, love God to obey Him and His commandments, and love people which includes feeding and clothing them and to help them with whatever need they have.

Which Abraham was justified for obeying God and going to do the work of sacrificing Isaac, and Rahab was justified for showing love to the 2 Jewish men by hiding them.

We are justified by works for love must be in action for it to apply as love.

Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

1Co 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
Joh 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Love is the fulfilling of the law, and love is greater than faith, and faith works by love.

No love, no faith, so if a person does not have love for other people which has to be done in works then their faith does not apply for love is greater than faith, and faith works by love.

Out of faith, hope, and charity, only charity, love in action, will go on forever for faith, and hope are not needed in heaven.

Love can only apply if we obey the commandments of God, and have works of love towards people, the 2 greatest laws.

Some people do not understand when Paul speaks according to the flesh, and according to the Spirit, and Paul and James say the same thing concerning faith without works is dead all the while they argue over the 2 as if there is a contradiction in the Bible.

Paul said we are saved by faith, and not by works, which is when we first confess Christ for that is all we can do for when we first believe we have not received the Spirit yet but we are in the flesh so none of our works while in the flesh can save us, so all we can do is have faith to begin our salvation.

But after we receive the Spirit then Paul says we have to have charity, love in action, works, or we are nothing, and have erred from the faith, the same as James said faith without works is dead.

But people want to carry not saved by works throughout their walk with God when we have to have works of love or our faith is dead for love is greater than faith.

And these works are works of the Spirit and not the flesh which we know we have to do the works of the Spirit to be right with God for we have to obey God so what would be the problem, and without being led of the Spirit we cannot be perfect in loving people so faith could not apply.

Which the Bible says some have a form of godliness but deny the Spirit leading them, from such turn away for they are hypocritical, ever learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth, which there is many hypocrites not loving people like they should as they enjoy the world as the world enjoys it, and go by their wants in money and material things which they are lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God, and then say they are saved by faith, but love is greater than faith.

Rev 2:4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Rev 3:2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Love is greater than faith to obey God, and to love people in action and not in word or in tongue alone.

Jesus said He would go against these people that lacked love in works if they did not repent.

But the truth is some people interpret the scriptures according to the flesh to enjoy things of the flesh so they say faith alone, and some do not understand but are going by that improper teaching provided to them by other people, or maybe they did not understand if they read it alone.

Faith works by love, not faith alone.

Paul and James say the same thing all the while some people argue over the 2 and Paul said without works they are nothing, and have erred from the faith, and James says their faith is dead.

God justifies a sinner based on Jesus own righteousness, this comes to all who believe (aka there is no righteousness in your performance, you be righteous through Christ own righteousness, it makes you holy)

Simply put, Abraham believed God which was reckoned to him as righteousness. So it is for all who believe God, and today this means believing Jesus….

So you are implying that the book of James is in error then...

You have a strange interpretation. James 1:1 clearly stated who James was addressing his letter to.

Your logic doesn't hold. Paul in Romans addressed his letter to those in Rome. Do you quote Romans?

Abraham believed God at His word in chapter 15, but was not justified until chapter 22 when he offered up his son Isaac.

This is different than what we enjoy today under the New Testament. The believer in Christ is justified immediately upon belief.

The book of James is not a Christian epistle, but a letter in continuance of the gospel to the circumcision. He is writing to the twelve tribes scattered abroad. This is never a description of the Church, Christians, or Jewish believers in Christ. The term is always associated with the nation of Israel as a whole, never a called out group from that nation.

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous.

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

We need to remember that James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).

There are the Jews and the gentiles

Who was he justified before? There was no one else on that mountain other than Isaac. Besides, no amount of works can justify a man before God or other men.

James is a Jewish book with the tribulation in sight. Though it was written before Paul’s letters, it was supernaturally placed in chronology directed to an audience after the Church age.

Actually, the question James is answering is can faith save?

James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Can faith alone save? Absolutely! No works needed to earn salvation nor to prove salvation. If works proves salvation...what works and how many works? Giving someone food proves I’m saved?