Not By Works

The Corinthians, the Galatians, and the Hebrew church left and went where? There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians and there are also genuine Christians who may get side tracked by legalistic teachers and temporarily stumble, yet there are no unequivocal terms in the Bible which state that a really "saved" person really "lose their salvation." In regards to 1 John 2:19, we read - They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; (DID YOU SEE THAT?) but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

Lets look at the context then: 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?

So not referring to an unbelieving spouse. Context is clear.

and again....His people: 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” [g]says the Lord. And again, “The Lord will judge His people.”

NONE of this changes a single thing I said to you. It appears you, and especially Ralph, want to give credit to satan for this man's repentance.

The point stands. IF he was a born again child of God his spirit was eternally secure in Christ.

You did not answer my question. You said you believed you were a born again child of God.

Those who are NOT His children WILL be thrown into the Lake of Fire. All agree on that.

Do you believe YOU, as His child, can do, or NOT do something to have your Heavenly Father toss YOU into the Lake of Fire?

Are you using these passages of scripture to teach that man is saved by faith and works? In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to validate his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

In James 2:19, we see that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they do not believe/have faith in/trust in/reliance in Jesus Christ for salvation. In other words, they do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.

In James 2:20, "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith (which is like saying that a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree) or that works are the source of life in faith or that we are saved by works. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works is dead. If someone says-claims they have faith but lack resulting evidential works, then he has an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith.

Remember that James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous.

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

Hebrews 11:1 - Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. Faith is not works. In Hebrews 11, notice in all of these occurrences that is was "by" or "out of" faith, not faith is in essence, these acts of obedience/works. Their faith was genuine and it was shown by their actions (works) so all of these works accomplished in Hebrews 11 were done "by" or "out of" faith, but those works are not the essence of faith, only the evidence (fruit) of faith. That is absolutely critical to understand! We are saved through faith at it's origin and not at some time later, based on the merit of works. Faith is the root of salvation and works which follow are the fruit.

I already looked at the context. In Hebrews 10:26, To "sin willfully" in the Greek carries the idea of deliberate intention that is habitual, which stems from rejecting Christ deliberately. This is continuous action, a matter of practice. Now we don't walk along our daily life and "accidentally" fall into a pit called sin. We exercise our will but, the use of the participle clearly shows ongoing, willful action. The unrighteous practice sin (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21); not the righteous, who are born of God (1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9).

As I already explained, if the word 'sanctified' in Hebrews 10:29 is used to describe saved people who lost their salvation as you teach, then we have a contradiction because the writer of Hebrews in verse 10 said "sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all" (Hebrews 10:10) and in verse 14, we read, "perfected for all time those who are sanctified." (Hebrews 10:14)

*NOWHERE in the context does it specifically say the person who "trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant" was "saved" and/or "lost their salvation." The reference to "the blood of the covenant that sanctified him" in verse 29 "on the surface" appears to be referring to a Christian, but this overlooks the fact that the word translated "sanctified" (which is the verb form of the adjective "holy") which means "set apart," and doesn't necessarily refer to salvation, as I previously explained in regards to 1 Corinthians 7:14.

*In 1 Corinthians 7:14, Paul uses it to specifically refer to unbelievers who are "sanctified" or "set apart" by their believing spouse. (And by this Paul does not mean that they are saved). A non-Christian can be "set apart" from other non-Christians without experiencing salvation as Paul explained. So the word "sanctified" means to be "set apart." If the word "sanctified" is to be given a broad brushed definition of saved, then you would have to say that the seventh day was saved (Genesis 2:3), the tabernacle was saved (Exodus 29:43), the Lord was saved (Leviticus 10:3), the Father saved the Son (John 10:36) and many other things that do not line up with scripture.

Once again, in verse 39, the writer of Hebrews sets up the CONTRAST that makes it clear to me that he was referring to unbelievers, not saved people: But WE are not OF THOSE who draw back to perdition, but OF THOSE who believe to the saving of the soul. Those who draw back to perdition do not believe to the saving of the soul and those who believe to the saving of the soul do not draw back to perdition.

As I already explained, after considering the CONTEXT of Hebrews 10, it seems most likely that "he was sanctified" should be understood in the sense of someone who had been "set apart" and was associated and identified with being an active participant in the Hebrew Christian community of believers, but later renounces their identification with these Hebrew believers, by rejecting the "knowledge of the truth" they had received (Hebrews 10:26) and trampling under foot the work and the person of Christ himself, which gives evidence that their identification with the Hebrew Christian community of believers "on the surface" had merely appeared to be real, but after closer examination turned out to be superficial and thus the person was not a genuine believer.

Don't expect you to go back weeks to read posts already dealing with this, so I'll re-post a couple: Post #114401

Well there is not only the term "fiery indignation" in that passage but also JUDGEMENT.

27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.

Correction is NOT judgement. Wasn't our sins judged on a Cross in the body of Christ?

Also, we must always keep in mind who this letter is initially addressed to. The HEBREWS. Verse 30 says this:30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The Lord will judge His people.”

Judgement will start at the house of Israel, God's chosen people. We must remember that there is a difference between God's people, and God's Children. You cannot be a Child of God unless you are born again. Not every Jew was born again, although ALL are considered God's chosen people.


I think it's a very tough sell to say these people are saved and the punishment only applies to THIS life. These people continued in sin. What sin? The sin of rejecting the sufficiency of Christ's atoning Sacrifice, and wanted to continue to sacrifice animals to atone for their sin.

I don't believe they were saved to begin with. They had the KNOWLEDGE of the Truth, but they didn't have THE TRUTH, Jesus Christ.

Tell me, do YOU have VENGEANCE on your kids? You discipline them, but I'm sure you don't seek revenge on them for things they have done. You think our Heavenly Father has REVENGE on His Kids?

Post#114249

Sanctified in this context simply means they were set apart. In this case they were sanctified because they were given the Truth.

The whole nation of Israel was "Sanctified" or set apart, for the Lord. But they are always referred to as Children of Israel, or children of Abraham, or God's PEOPLE. I can't find an instance where the people of Israel are referred to as the CHILDREN of God. THEY, had the Scriptures and Prophets and revelations, yet many did not believe, yet they were ALL collectively sanctified (set apart) by the Lord.

The passage in HEBREWS does NOT say they received the Truth. JESUS, is the Way the TRUTH, and the Life. It says they received the KNOWLEDGE of the Truth. Hence they bear greater responsibility as being HEBREW, being SANCTIFIED, having the Holy Scriptures, and the KNOWLEDGE of Jesus Christ!

They REJECTED Him and wanted to go back to sacrificing animals to atone for their sin. TRULY trampling the Blood Sacrifice of Christ and the Spirit of Grace.

NOWHERE, in that passage does it say they were born again believing Children of God. You are inferring that.

Affirmative .....Thank you

The Gospel is faith in Christ Jesus for the gift of eternal life based on His completed work...a work not one of us could ever accomplish.

One cannot receive from God when one does not believe truth.

The Gospel is ...SAVED!!

There’s a reason the 1st Commandment is the 1st Commandment.

Working for grace ~~ the ultimate irony.

here was my post. I have highlighted the passages

Hebrews 11...
The footsteps of saving faith.
Is that better for you?

If your 'saving' faith doesn't have footsteps, it's not saving faith.
Even Luther taught that.

You shall be like God and you will also violate His Word. The same lie Satan has always used ever since Genesis 3.

Yours is the “gospel” I came up in “church” under. It kept me a slave to sin by God’s own definition. In darkness, I had no clue what the Kingdom of God was. I had no real use for the Holy Spirit. I was not a son God for I was not being led by His Spirit. I had “accepted Jesus in to my heart” but I wasn’t born again. O, but I was going to heaven just like everyone else in that building on Sunday morning. We were houses built on sand - we called Him ‘Lord, Lord, but we did not do what He said. We weren’t His disciples for we had not denied ourselves nor did we abide in His Word. We were uncircumcised in heart. The leaven remained. Our bible was about 24 pages long. We were modern American Christians. But Jesus didn’t come to start Christianity. He came to baptize us with the Holy Spirit.

As it is written, “In every nation whoever fears Him and does what is right is accepted by Him.” He inspires us to fear Him so that we will never turn away from Him.

In these days Christians have no king; everyone does as he sees fit. Jesus Christ is Lord, bless His holy name. Salvation ain’t about us. It is about glorifying Him in all we do and say in this Sabbath rest religion has rejected.

That is right...... because accepting Jesus into your heart is not the Gospel.

So that fact that you go the wrong message the first time does not mean you have the right message this time.

My way of expressing it is faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No fruit at all demonstrates there is no root, yet we are still saved through faith and not by works.

So you have to actually physically leave to show that you never believed and have only been a fake believer.
I'm pretty certain your once saved always saved argument has been all along that it refers to the person who no longer believes, not the person who physically leaves. That's how you've been interpreting Hebrews 3:6 & 14......you know, the passages where you say continued believing shows you are really saved. (Which, by the way, I hope you addressed the issue I raised with the aorist verb in that passage).