Not By Works

EDIT 1: I also would like to say I do not believe there is anyone here who is against OSAS because they don't want it to be true. I am sure me you and everyone would love for OSAS to be true. Smooth sailing, that is what people like, including me.

@TooFastTurtle



I have had to copy and paste the above as I can't reply with just that portion for some reason.

I have to disagree to a certain extent with your quote.
I have seen it from both sides.
Not that a person wishes for it to be true but that it is not true.
That is as a result of what we have been taught based on the denomination we belong to.

Putting aside the OSAS issue for the moment there are denominations that believe tongues are evidence of salvation. No tongues no salvation.
Fell foul of that myself. I was told I was not saved because I did not speak in tongues.

I know a lovely gentle guy who is a Mormon.
Had many a chat.
He believes we have to do good works to be saved, that I disagree with but after many mant conversations he rejects my view that we do not have to.

My view is that we do good works because we are saved and not to be saved.

It is by faith we are saved unto good works.
I also believe that if we do good works even though we may not want to, then that increases our faith.

Now with regards to OSAS/ES you seem to think it's smooth sailing.
I have no idea why you think that because it certainly is not.

I myself have moved from works salvation to OSAS/ES.
My life was miserable under this doctrine.
I could do 99 great works and 1 bad one, then I was waiting for the slap on the bad one because that was my focus as it was a bad work.

So a genuine beliver who believes in OSAS/ES is not on a nice yacht that easily sails.
They want to be like Jesus, do and be what he has commanded us to do.
Love God, love each other, love our enemies.
Want to put him first.

Most like me would agree that we abhor any doctrine that promotes grace as a license to sin, do what we and it doesn't matter.
We know Paul addressed this in Romans.

As much as I abhor the doctrine of the above and one that says we must speak in tongues in order to be saved.

Not all OSAS/ES believers are greasy gracers.

So I just wanted to address your quote and give my perspective of my doctinal bent.
I have been on both sides, seen people change and come over to works do not save.
And I'm glad because if it's a genuine faith it's one that wants to be like Jesus, can be accepted warts and all.

Asks Jesus to deal with the warts, hates those warts.
One that wants to be like Jesus.
Not to be saved but because they are saved unto being like Jesus.

Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Romans 8:28-30
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

I love v29.

TO BE CONFORMED TO THE IMAGE OF HIS SON.

The point of my post is to address the concept that those who believe in OSAS/ES are in fact not greasy gracers. As I have been accused of on here along with others as well.
And it's very sad and abhorrent to suggest so and continue to do so when we reject that we do.

My post above is not to solicit a response as to whether one can reject their faith but to address the response of smooth sailing concerning OSAS.

Bill

Please elaborate

Bro dont worry, I keep it oldschool too, I use CAPS for emphasis too, ive had folks tell me that thing DONT YELL I said im not yelling i aint making a SOUND im TYPING with large letters like Paul did to the Galatians, ITS BIBLICAL!

All this internet etiquette is dumb if you ask me.

Blah, blah, blah. You’re far from being Christlike, and you sure as heck aren’t my friend. I’m a hospice chaplain; how’s that for a vocation and career.

And for the record I’ve been lifting weights for 35 years. You’ve got nothing on me kid.

Thank you for a gracious response. I want to discuss with you further, YOU specifically. You look like a polite guy.

What is your view of Galatians 5:19-21, 1 Corinthians 6:9-11? How do you see it going with OSAS?

Feel free to ask me about verses too if you wish. Or PM me.

Reading this lovely post made me re-focus on using less argumentative language and more so dealing with the issues, not taking it personally. Made me delete my post I just sent, already said all that before no need for me to repeat the same thing with more virtriol. Thank you Bill

Funnily enough I knew you was going to ask about the above verses.

I'm going out soon but hopefully can give my response before I do.

I think that people tend to focus on these verses as good works.
Yet I do not.
The reason being is not that I think it's ok to those things.
In fact it's not.
Paul said

1 Corinthians 6:11
11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

So he is saying this is what you were, don't love like what you were but live how you are now in Christ.

Not in the flesh but in the spirit.
I go back to Romams 5-7 here.

So a person who seeks to live according to the Spirit will not want to do the things in the above the verses.

As he does so he will manifest the fruit.
This fruit is not just sin management but also what Jesus judges the sheep and goats in Matthew, what James addresses in show me your faith by your works.

What Jesus addresses with his disciples, by love the world will know.

It's all encompassing, we cannot sperate it but we cannot judge the level as such.
Everything we do must be out of faith and love.

But with reference to the verses you posted if I knew a person e who felt it ok to that and it is covered I would take issue and look at Romans 5-7.
I would seek to understand why, just to see if healing was needed.

If rejected then like Jesus said. Leave them to it (I would always leave the door open and knock on it)

Hope I make sense.

Here I will post John 6 for you:

26 Jesus answered them and said, “Most assuredly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw the signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled. 27 Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him.”

LABOR FOR THE FOOD WHICH ENDURES TO EVERLASTING LIFE. - It is continual. Give us THIS DAY our DAILY BREAD. Its not a once off eat a morsel at conversion and sit back OSAS style.

28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”


29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

To believe is also to obey. Its a lifestyle of obedience. Proof given in Hebrews 3. Also, why do you call me Lord Lord and not DO the things which I say.

30 Therefore they said to Him, “What sign will You perform then, that we may see it and believe You? What work will You do? 31 Our fathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written, ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’ ”


32 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, Moses did not give you the bread from heaven, but My Father gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”


34 Then they said to Him, “Lord, give us this bread always.”


35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me (and remains) shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me (and continues to believe) shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me (and remains with me) I will [f]by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day (make sure your will and the Fathers will are aligned. God doesnt want to lose any. Thats His will. He will not drag you into heaven kicking and screaming against His Will. If you LOVE ME you will OBEY ME). 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

Saul is a good example of such a person, who started off well under God's Graces and led by the Spirit. Yet Saul's end was not the same as his beginning. His Disobedience caused his downfall.

1 Samuel 10
6 Then the Spirit of the Lord will come upon you, and you will prophesy with them and be turned into another man. 7 And let it be, when these signs come to you, that you do as the occasion demands; for God is with you. 8 You shall go down before me to Gilgal; and surely I will come down to you to offer burnt offerings and make sacrifices of peace offerings. Seven days you shall wait, till I come to you and show you what you should do.”

9 So it was, when he had turned his back to go from Samuel, that God [c]gave him another heart; and all those signs came to pass that day. 10 When they came there to the hill, there was a group of prophets to meet him; then the Spirit of God came upon him, and he prophesied among them. 11 And it happened, when all who knew him formerly saw that he indeed prophesied among the prophets, that the people said to one another, “What is this that has come upon the son of Kish? Is Saul also among the prophets?”

You still do not get it, DO YOU ? ? ?

We do not HOLD ON TO OUR FAITH, OUT OF OUR STRENGTH. That Strength at IT"S BEST IS FINITE, and we would lose it.

HE WILL EMPOWER US WITH HIS STRENGTH, which is INFINITE STRENGTH, that WILL carry it on to COMPLETION.


Philippians 1:6 (HCSB)
6 I am sure of this, that He who started a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

2 Corinthians 3:5 (HCSB)
5 ⌊It is⌋ not that we are competent in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but our competence is from God.

Philippians 2:13 (HCSB)
13 For it is God who is working in you, ⌊enabling you⌋ both to desire and to work out His good purpose.


So how come do you insist, you do HIS GOOD PURPOSE, out of your own Strength, out of your Desire and Will ? ? ?

Isn't that like ROBBING the GLORY that totally belongs to our LORD GOD, to HIM Alone, and THEN saying "LOOK WHAT I DID," patting yourself on the back ? ? ?

I do not claim that anything done by me that is GOOD Works, was of MY Power or Strength, it WAS Jesus Christ in me who did HIS Desire and HE worked it out. Anything I Did that was not according to GOD's WILL, I have to take FULL credit for those sins.

Romans 4:4-5 (NIV)
4 Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation.
5 However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.

Romans 7:18-19 (NCV)
18 Yes, I know that nothing good lives in me—I mean nothing good lives in the part of me that is earthly and sinful. I want to do the things that are good, but I do not do them.
19 I do not do the good things I want to do, but I do the bad things I do not want to do.

Galatians 2:20 (HCSB)
20 and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.


So why is it YOU DO NOT GIVE CHRIST CREDIT FOR LIVING IN YOU, and give HIM the FULL GLORY for doing what Pleases GOD thru you?

Now even continuing in belief is not required? The continuing part is in John 15, where one must abide in Christ or be cut off by the Father.

The same John who wrote they went out from us also wrote about abiding. Yes there are some who depart from the true believers that were never saved as John states, these were the gnostics who denied Jesus had come in the flesh. There are also many who were in the faith, and then departed from the living God, which is completely biblical, not only is the phrase departed from the living God biblical, so is the parable of the sower where some believe for a _while_ but then fall away due to circumstances. So they did indeed believe for a while, so this idea that they never had faith to begin with is just not biblically false, its also demonstrably false and we see people lose faith in many things daily.

You need to explain how some people could have received the Spirit, begun in the Spirit and ended up in the flesh, were severed from Christ and yet this means they are still saved but are just not enjoying the fuzzy feelings of grace. There are so many verses of people departing from the faith and I do not buy into the explanations I have heard so far, they are just too weak and effectively nullify the whole meaning of the passages. Which is exactly my biggest concern with this doctrine, you cannot go to someone and rebuke them, because what is going to happen if they do not repent? Nothing, God will "punish" (reward more like) them by taking them home early if it gets too far. There it is, absolutely nothing will happen. Only thing you can say is you are not sure if that person is even saved, and at which point its back to Calvinism of guessing which one is truly saved and which is not. Where is waldo? theology.


A brother in the Rapture thread pointed out in the beginning of it that he feels internet debates are pointless because people rarely if ever change their view.
I looked back on it and it has been 42 pages and not a single person has conceded on a single point they had. This has caused me to think perhaps the man is right, this is largely meaningless, as we have probably all heard the same arguments a thousand times. I will reply back if some new valid explanation is provided to how some people could have received the Spirit, begun in the Spirit and ended up in the flesh, were severed from Christ and yet this means they are still saved but are just not enjoying the fuzzy feelings of grace or are out of position with grace or whichever argument people have used here. If not I will just let it be, I said what I had to say and I got my mocking blocker on. What joke will stand up comedian mr.military come up with? Something clever and snappy, if only that would answer any of our questions.

EDIT 1: I also would like to say I do not believe there is anyone here who is against OSAS because they don't want it to be true. I am sure me you and everyone would love for OSAS to be true. Smooth sailing, that is what people like, including me.

The verb is uses the perfect tense (Greek gegonamen). There is nothing here that implies we will become or will remain partakers of Christ if we hold fast to the end.

You still do not get it, DO YOU ? ? ?

We do not HOLD ON TO OUR FAITH, OUT OF OUR STRENGTH. That Strength at IT"S BEST IS FINITE, and we would lose it.

HE WILL EMPOWER US WITH HIS STRENGTH, which is INFINITE STRENGTH, that WILL carry it on to COMPLETION.


Philippians 1:6 (HCSB)
6 I am sure of this, that He who started a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

2 Corinthians 3:5 (HCSB)
5 ⌊It is⌋ not that we are competent in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but our competence is from God.

Philippians 2:13 (HCSB)
13 For it is God who is working in you, ⌊enabling you⌋ both to desire and to work out His good purpose.


So how come do you insist, you do HIS GOOD PURPOSE, out of your own Strength, out of your Desire and Will ? ? ?

Isn't that like ROBBING the GLORY that totally belongs to our LORD GOD, to HIM Alone, and THEN saying "LOOK WHAT I DID," patting yourself on the back ? ? ?

I do not claim that anything done by me that is GOOD Works, was of MY Power or Strength, it WAS Jesus Christ in me who did HIS Desire and HE worked it out. Anything I Did that was not according to GOD's WILL, I have to take FULL credit for those sins.

Romans 4:4-5 (NIV)
4 Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation.
5 However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.

Romans 7:18-19 (NCV)
18 Yes, I know that nothing good lives in me—I mean nothing good lives in the part of me that is earthly and sinful. I want to do the things that are good, but I do not do them.
19 I do not do the good things I want to do, but I do the bad things I do not want to do.

Galatians 2:20 (HCSB)
20 and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.


So why is it YOU DO NOT GIVE CHRIST CREDIT FOR LIVING IN YOU, and give HIM the FULL GLORY for doing what Pleases GOD thru you?

1 Samuel 18

12 Now Saul was afraid of David, because the Lord was with him, but had departed from Saul.

I guess that it never occurs to you that Saul was not ever fully committed to Lord?
I mean, he was hiding at his inauguration, they had to drag him out in front of the people to be crowned king . not showing the strongest belief right from the start.

He changed. He fell back. Bible is clear that God gave him a new heart. He was a new man (see above). God was with him. Yet he fell back. All you need to know about Saul was made clear in the scriptures.

Then God Departed from him.

but, if Saul was never 100% committed to the Lord, then God, being patient , stayed with him for a while, then when Saul never committed himself to God, then God departed .

God knows the heart. God wants everyone to turn to Him.

the one thing that is the most poison about religion is that it presents God as not liking us very much, but if we try really hard, He will consider letting us into Heaven. maybe.

this garbage that you and every other religious person pushes is pure falsehoods.

God gave Saul a new heart and he became a new man. None of this says it was partial. Bible doesn't lie. Then Saul fell into disobedience. Sail no longer believed. Then God Departed. That's the order. That is confirmed throughout scripture.

You are not kicking against me. You are kicking against the scriptures.

right.

but, and I do not say this very much, but we still have free will. one can choose to believe in Christ, then one day choose not to.


the only thing one has to do to get into the Kingdom is believe. then God through Christ does the rest.

and, the reason I do not say this very often is it is not worth disagreeing over.

and I also understand that if one does walk away, the that person probably never really believed.

so, it's all good to me. we are headed toward the same destination , just on different trains.

and none of us teach legalism and/ or judeaizing.

grace through faith in Christ.

Yes .. it is true... I am thankful for this ....I have never even come close to giving it any consideration... I remember working for the Salvation Army one summer and they tried.. that was the first knowledge I had of conditional security.

It seemed very strange to me to they could believe that salvation was conditional.... and they are called the "Salvation" Army...