Not By Works
- Thread starter dcontroversal
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Thanks friend. I will keep digging until I can put it all together, perhaps there are many books written by both camps of the debate trying to reconcile it. I refuse to spend any money to get answers so I will pray, ask around here and there and everywhere. But I believe Scripture cannot contradict itself, and if it does it is due to different covenants people are under at that time or it is spoken to specific people only.
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There is a difference between the role of the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament and in the New Testament in regards to "indwelling." The New Testament teaches the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit in believers (Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30; 2 Corinthians 1:22; 2 Corinthians 5:5). When we place our faith in Jesus Christ for salvation, we are sealed in Christ by the Holy Spirit. The apostle Paul calls this permanent indwelling the “guarantee of our inheritance” (Ephesians 1:14). 
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*Notice - Brethren, if anyone "among" you wanders from the truth..turns a "sinner" from the error of his way.. Some would argue that James says this one who turned from the truth was a "sinner," and was "among" but "not of" the Brethren, then he wasn’t previously saved. That fits 1 John 2:19 - They went out "from" us, but they were "not of" us..
IF this person was a genuine believer, yet how do we know for sure this is the second death in the lake of fire? In Matthew 26:38, Jesus said: "My soul [psuche] is deeply grieved, to the point of death." Jesus was not saying that His soul was deeply grieved to the point of spiritual death, Rather, Jesus was talking about physical death, his human life. In Revelation 16:3, "The second angel poured out his bowl into the sea, and it became blood like that of a dead man; and every living soul [psuche] in the sea died". In 1 Peter 3:20 "... God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, [psuche-souls] were brought safely (saved from drowning, physical death) through the water" by the ark (Hebrews 11:7).
Jesus covered our sins in one way (Romans 4:7) by bringing forgiveness for all believers, yet sins can also be covered in a different way. In Proverbs 10:12, we read: Hatred stirs up strife, But love covers all sins. In 1 Peter 4:8, we read: And above all things have fervent love for one another, for "love will cover a multitude of sins." Where there is strife, there is hatred and unless love prevails, the strife will only get worse. Love covers offenses and sins when a believer turns back from error.
So is this wanderer a professing Christian, whose faith is not genuine, or a sinning Christian, who needs to be restored? For the former, the death spoken of in verse 20 is the "second death" (Revelation 21:8); for the latter, it is "physical death" (1 Corinthians 11:29-32; 1 John 5:16).
Believers are not passive in continuing in sound doctrine, but it's not merely in our own power that we continue. God alone saves, but "in a sense" we save ourselves and others through continuing in sound doctrine, as we continue to believe the gospel and are used as God's instruments to bring about the salvation of others through preaching the gospel to them as well.
If you fell into a well with no way out and someone threw down and rope and pulled you out of the well, "in a sense" you can say that you "saved yourself" by choosing to grab and hold onto the rope and allowing that person to pull you out of the well, but ultimately, the person who pulled you out of the well saved you and ultimately, it is Jesus Christ who saves us.
Even though this shallow ground hearer in Luke 8:13 is said to have "believed," yet he is never said to have been "saved." How do we know that the shallow ground hearer was never actually "saved"? Allow me to explain why:
First, his heart condition is contrasted with that of the "good ground" hearer in the 4th soil, who's heart was "good" and "honest." Thus, his heart was not "good," being like the soil to which it corresponds, being "shallow" or "rocky," lacking sufficient depth. Such soil represents a sinner not properly prepared in heart. People who "believe" and "rejoice" at the preaching of the gospel without a prepared heart, and without a good and honest heart, and without having "root" in themselves, do not experience real salvation.
*IN CONTRAST TO Mark 4:8 - But other seed fell on good ground and yielded a crop that sprang up, increased and produced: some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred. Luke 8:15 says, But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with perseverance. So the rocky soil represents a person not properly prepared in heart so the seed planted ends up with a lack of "root" (lack of being firmly planted, or established) and good soil represents a person properly prepared in heart who having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keeps it and bears fruit with perseverance.
*Unlike saving belief, temporary, shallow belief is not rooted in a regenerate heart. How can no depth of earth, no root, no moisture, no fruit, represent saving belief? Also the same Greek word for believe "pisteuo" is used in James 2:19, in which we read that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they are not saved.
John has portrayed people who "believe" (at least to some extent) but are clearly not saved. There is a stage in the progress of belief in Jesus that "falls short of firmly rooted consummated belief resulting in salvation." As we see in John 2:23-25, in which their belief was superficial in nature and Jesus would not entrust/commit Himself to them.
Also, in John 8:31-59, where the Jews who were said to have "believed in him" turn out to be slaves to sin, indifferent to the words of Jesus’, children of the devil, liars, accused Jesus of having a demon and were guilty of setting out to stone and kill the one they have professed to believe in. We can see at best, these Jews believed in Him (based on their own misconceptions and expectations) of Jesus, yet upon gaining further knowledge about Jesus through His words, we see they did not truly "believe unto salvation" and become children of God (John 1:12; 3:18) but were instead children of the devil.
Glad to help mate.
IF this person was a genuine believer, yet how do we know for sure this is the second death in the lake of fire? In Matthew 26:38, Jesus said: "My soul [psuche] is deeply grieved, to the point of death." Jesus was not saying that His soul was deeply grieved to the point of spiritual death, Rather, Jesus was talking about physical death, his human life. In Revelation 16:3, "The second angel poured out his bowl into the sea, and it became blood like that of a dead man; and every living soul [psuche] in the sea died". In 1 Peter 3:20 "... God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, [psuche-souls] were brought safely (saved from drowning, physical death) through the water" by the ark (Hebrews 11:7).
Jesus covered our sins in one way (Romans 4:7) by bringing forgiveness for all believers, yet sins can also be covered in a different way. In Proverbs 10:12, we read: Hatred stirs up strife, But love covers all sins. In 1 Peter 4:8, we read: And above all things have fervent love for one another, for "love will cover a multitude of sins." Where there is strife, there is hatred and unless love prevails, the strife will only get worse. Love covers offenses and sins when a believer turns back from error.
So is this wanderer a professing Christian, whose faith is not genuine, or a sinning Christian, who needs to be restored? For the former, the death spoken of in verse 20 is the "second death" (Revelation 21:8); for the latter, it is "physical death" (1 Corinthians 11:29-32; 1 John 5:16).
Believers are not passive in continuing in sound doctrine, but it's not merely in our own power that we continue. God alone saves, but "in a sense" we save ourselves and others through continuing in sound doctrine, as we continue to believe the gospel and are used as God's instruments to bring about the salvation of others through preaching the gospel to them as well.
If you fell into a well with no way out and someone threw down and rope and pulled you out of the well, "in a sense" you can say that you "saved yourself" by choosing to grab and hold onto the rope and allowing that person to pull you out of the well, but ultimately, the person who pulled you out of the well saved you and ultimately, it is Jesus Christ who saves us.
Even though this shallow ground hearer in Luke 8:13 is said to have "believed," yet he is never said to have been "saved." How do we know that the shallow ground hearer was never actually "saved"? Allow me to explain why:
First, his heart condition is contrasted with that of the "good ground" hearer in the 4th soil, who's heart was "good" and "honest." Thus, his heart was not "good," being like the soil to which it corresponds, being "shallow" or "rocky," lacking sufficient depth. Such soil represents a sinner not properly prepared in heart. People who "believe" and "rejoice" at the preaching of the gospel without a prepared heart, and without a good and honest heart, and without having "root" in themselves, do not experience real salvation.
*IN CONTRAST TO Mark 4:8 - But other seed fell on good ground and yielded a crop that sprang up, increased and produced: some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred. Luke 8:15 says, But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with perseverance. So the rocky soil represents a person not properly prepared in heart so the seed planted ends up with a lack of "root" (lack of being firmly planted, or established) and good soil represents a person properly prepared in heart who having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keeps it and bears fruit with perseverance.
*Unlike saving belief, temporary, shallow belief is not rooted in a regenerate heart. How can no depth of earth, no root, no moisture, no fruit, represent saving belief? Also the same Greek word for believe "pisteuo" is used in James 2:19, in which we read that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they are not saved.
John has portrayed people who "believe" (at least to some extent) but are clearly not saved. There is a stage in the progress of belief in Jesus that "falls short of firmly rooted consummated belief resulting in salvation." As we see in John 2:23-25, in which their belief was superficial in nature and Jesus would not entrust/commit Himself to them.
Also, in John 8:31-59, where the Jews who were said to have "believed in him" turn out to be slaves to sin, indifferent to the words of Jesus’, children of the devil, liars, accused Jesus of having a demon and were guilty of setting out to stone and kill the one they have professed to believe in. We can see at best, these Jews believed in Him (based on their own misconceptions and expectations) of Jesus, yet upon gaining further knowledge about Jesus through His words, we see they did not truly "believe unto salvation" and become children of God (John 1:12; 3:18) but were instead children of the devil.
Glad to help mate.
What should I do now?
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12:01 a.m.
Wednesday, December 25, 2019 (GMT+11)
Time in Sydney NSW, Australia
@dcontroversal .. to the person who is 17 hours ahead.....hahahaha
Wednesday, December 25, 2019 (GMT+11)
Time in Sydney NSW, Australia
@dcontroversal .. to the person who is 17 hours ahead.....hahahaha
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I don’t need to add anything. Sealed until the redemption of the purchased possession/unto the day of redemption says it all. (Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30) Now show me the word “unsealed.”
(Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30) Now show me the word “unsealed.”
24As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. - 1 John 2:24
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@Chris1975 why spamming the thread? Coming to terms with the true Gospel of salvation that is secure in Him apart from any and all works?
Feeling overwhelmed by the truth you have been shown?
Feeling overwhelmed by the truth you have been shown?
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Your seeing things through "flesh" eyes! This is why you and the OSAS crowd say the things you do!
It's because you can only "see" what we "testify", and not the "investing of talents", in the "offering of spiritual sacrifices" to God BY Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior.
The OSAS "creedo", it appears to me, ranges all the way from THIS?:
Matthew 25
24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine. (stony ground/cookie cutter-strength = quantity over quality)
Which, over the passage of time on earth? DESCENDS into THIS!:
Isaiah 28
15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves: (yielding to the "likes" of those who have "crept in unawares." WILLINGLY ignorant)
To worshiping THIS "jesus!":
2 Thessalonians 2
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
I "hope" OSAS'ers can see, when Jesus sez He and the Father are ONE? They ARE!
ONE SPIRIT!
ONE MIND!
ONE PURPOSE!
ONE WAR!
Fighting the "prince of this current world age", for the SAKE of those "WHOSOEVER WILL, May COME!"
Ya "see?"....We're fighting/warring with you, and for you! whilst y'all OSAS'ers "sit on yer hands, and trust", and condemn us without knowledge, regarding that which we do!
Far as love goes? Tis the greatest "fruit."
Yet? Is the TRICKIEST! And yet? It's only ONE of the "manifestations" of the "Fruit of the Spirit!"
Why else would it be called: "FALLING in love?"
Perhaps, because it is?
Doesn't SOUND very edifying, does it?
The "son of perdition" Paul was describing above? Is what "turned" Israel to "UNBELIEF!"
And? Is what's causing gentiles to be "cut off!"
(true story)
It's because you can only "see" what we "testify", and not the "investing of talents", in the "offering of spiritual sacrifices" to God BY Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior.
The OSAS "creedo", it appears to me, ranges all the way from THIS?:
Matthew 25
24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine. (stony ground/cookie cutter-strength = quantity over quality)
Which, over the passage of time on earth? DESCENDS into THIS!:
Isaiah 28
15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves: (yielding to the "likes" of those who have "crept in unawares." WILLINGLY ignorant)
To worshiping THIS "jesus!":
2 Thessalonians 2
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
I "hope" OSAS'ers can see, when Jesus sez He and the Father are ONE? They ARE!
ONE SPIRIT!
ONE MIND!
ONE PURPOSE!
ONE WAR!
Fighting the "prince of this current world age", for the SAKE of those "WHOSOEVER WILL, May COME!"
Ya "see?"....We're fighting/warring with you, and for you! whilst y'all OSAS'ers "sit on yer hands, and trust", and condemn us without knowledge, regarding that which we do!
Far as love goes? Tis the greatest "fruit."
Yet? Is the TRICKIEST! And yet? It's only ONE of the "manifestations" of the "Fruit of the Spirit!"
Why else would it be called: "FALLING in love?"
Perhaps, because it is?
Doesn't SOUND very edifying, does it?
The "son of perdition" Paul was describing above? Is what "turned" Israel to "UNBELIEF!"
And? Is what's causing gentiles to be "cut off!"
(true story)
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OK, lets continue with the bible lesson only using what you have quoted above.
The commands are to:
1) Believe on the name of the Son
2) Love one another.
Wait.........up to now all you have been quoting is believe on the name of the Son.....
It ALSO says Love One another..
So.....if you steal from your brother, do you love one another, if you cheat on your wife, do you love one another, if you lie to others, do you love one another, if you covet your neighbours goods or wife, do you love one another, if you gossip behind someones back, do you love one another. And the list can go on and on.
See, bible lesson is instructive. And....the above.....its a commandment.
The commands are to:
1) Believe on the name of the Son
2) Love one another.
Wait.........up to now all you have been quoting is believe on the name of the Son.....
It ALSO says Love One another..
So.....if you steal from your brother, do you love one another, if you cheat on your wife, do you love one another, if you lie to others, do you love one another, if you covet your neighbours goods or wife, do you love one another, if you gossip behind someones back, do you love one another. And the list can go on and on.
See, bible lesson is instructive. And....the above.....its a commandment.
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All we have to do is look at the pharisees
they were fruit inspector masters. And always pushed obedience to the detriment of their own security, because in their self righteous judgemental ways, they failed to see their own sin and as such, then failed to see their need for grace. Which caused them to reject gods gift to them. and this attitude was passed down to the Jewish people.
even later when they started relenting and coming into the church, they still brought this fruit inspecting,adding works, self righteous attitude into the church, which sadly has lingered for over 2000 years. As we see even here in this room, the attitude is still Living and powerful .
they were fruit inspector masters. And always pushed obedience to the detriment of their own security, because in their self righteous judgemental ways, they failed to see their own sin and as such, then failed to see their need for grace. Which caused them to reject gods gift to them. and this attitude was passed down to the Jewish people.
even later when they started relenting and coming into the church, they still brought this fruit inspecting,adding works, self righteous attitude into the church, which sadly has lingered for over 2000 years. As we see even here in this room, the attitude is still Living and powerful .
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Yeah. Who keeps believing? THE SHEEP or THE GOAT
I keep teling you YOU CANT CHOOSE TO BELIEVE anything. You just cant, either you believe it or you dont. If I tell you there is an invisible unicorn behind you, YOU WILL NOT BELIEVE IT no matter how hard you try.
We are dealing on DIFFERENT PREMISES you and me. RALPH if thats your real name!
I believe faith is given to me by GOD, you believe faith is something you need to whip out on your own and continue in it. This is what happens when you dont read DESCRIPTIVE verses as such. You and @Chris1975 got the same problem, quoting verses from John's epistles and acting like all the perseverance of the saints or OSAS believers are just sitting there holding their seats going "OH NAWWH WE AINT NEVER HEARD OF THAT VERSE, WHAT? We need to love our brother NO WAY? Guess we were wrong all along!"
SURPRISE, we got ENTIRE bible commentaries, read mr JOHN GILL for example, he has a commentary on EVERY VERSE of the Bible, its free too, not saying the man is infallible but I bring him up to PROVE that there are people in our crew who have READ and COMMENTED on every verse, nothing comes as a surprise.
WE AINT NEVER SCARED. Game set match lets go to a theological WAR I got NOTHING going for me on Christmas as I dont celebrate it, but MERRY CHRISTMAS to all you who do. I got nothing but time, WHO WANTS TO go toe to toe on the internet in a theological battle? I think thats a bit safer than going toe to toe in a boxing ring with the GYPSY WARRIOR. You up for the theology debate bro? You OR Chris, y'all gonna quit on the stool!
I will start it: LETS DISCUSS John 6 where Jesus makes it clear that those who COME to Him are NEVER cast away and WILL BE RAISED (no ifs or buts) on the last day.
At the end of the chapter some disciples ABANDON Jesus, in the same chapter and NO its not a contradiction, as y'all would probably think them boys lost their salvation. WHAT IT IS, IS: "Yet there are some of you who do not believe.”" Jesus says in verse 64. These were the people who were NOT OF US, they LEFT later down the line but they were VISIBLY part of the disciples. Jesus asks the disciples if they wanna leave too and they say:
"Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. We have come to believe and to know that you are the Holy One of God.”"
I keep teling you YOU CANT CHOOSE TO BELIEVE anything. You just cant, either you believe it or you dont. If I tell you there is an invisible unicorn behind you, YOU WILL NOT BELIEVE IT no matter how hard you try.
We are dealing on DIFFERENT PREMISES you and me. RALPH if thats your real name!
I believe faith is given to me by GOD, you believe faith is something you need to whip out on your own and continue in it. This is what happens when you dont read DESCRIPTIVE verses as such. You and @Chris1975 got the same problem, quoting verses from John's epistles and acting like all the perseverance of the saints or OSAS believers are just sitting there holding their seats going "OH NAWWH WE AINT NEVER HEARD OF THAT VERSE, WHAT? We need to love our brother NO WAY? Guess we were wrong all along!"
SURPRISE, we got ENTIRE bible commentaries, read mr JOHN GILL for example, he has a commentary on EVERY VERSE of the Bible, its free too, not saying the man is infallible but I bring him up to PROVE that there are people in our crew who have READ and COMMENTED on every verse, nothing comes as a surprise.
WE AINT NEVER SCARED. Game set match lets go to a theological WAR I got NOTHING going for me on Christmas as I dont celebrate it, but MERRY CHRISTMAS to all you who do. I got nothing but time, WHO WANTS TO go toe to toe on the internet in a theological battle? I think thats a bit safer than going toe to toe in a boxing ring with the GYPSY WARRIOR. You up for the theology debate bro? You OR Chris, y'all gonna quit on the stool!
I will start it: LETS DISCUSS John 6 where Jesus makes it clear that those who COME to Him are NEVER cast away and WILL BE RAISED (no ifs or buts) on the last day.
At the end of the chapter some disciples ABANDON Jesus, in the same chapter and NO its not a contradiction, as y'all would probably think them boys lost their salvation. WHAT IT IS, IS: "Yet there are some of you who do not believe.”" Jesus says in verse 64. These were the people who were NOT OF US, they LEFT later down the line but they were VISIBLY part of the disciples. Jesus asks the disciples if they wanna leave too and they say:
"Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. We have come to believe and to know that you are the Holy One of God.”"