Not By Works

1 Thessalonians 4, last several verses. We will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air...

Try to explain these VERSES:

2 Timothy 1:9 (HCSB)
9 He has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.

Titus 3:5-7 (HCSB)
5 He saved us— not by works of righteousness that we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 2:4-5 (HCSB)
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love that He had for us,
5 made us alive with the Messiah even though we were dead in trespasses. You are saved by grace!

Romans 4:4-5 (NET)
4 Now to the one who works, his pay is not credited due to grace but due to obligation.
5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous, his faith is credited as righteousness.


In my opinion, you and your church have made a grievous error in interpretation.

No, you don't choose yourself. God calls.
Without the calling, nothing happens.
When God calls we may or may not respond with believing.
If we believe, we are chosen on the basis of that believing.
He chooses us, we do not choose him.

What I mean by pre-manufactured is, God purposely makes the soil of your heart either soil that will reject the word, or soil that will retain the word of God and bring it to fruition. I'm not convinced that's the way it is. That's Calvin's understanding of predestination. It means you are assigned soil that will reject the word, or you are assigned soil that doesn't reject the word......and there's nothing you or the devil can do about it either way.

In that doctrine, you're pre-programmed, or pre-manufactured, ahead of time which kind of soil you'll have. At this point, I do not believe that. But I do believe that you really do have soil that will either respond to the word of God, or you have soil that won't respond to the word of God. It's just something in the essence of who you are as a living spirit, not what God assigned you to be.

The work of the husbandman in tilling the soil, planting and watering it, etc. reveals who you are and whether your soil is soil that will grow the word of God, or won't grow the word of God. That's what this life is all about--God sorting out what soil will bring the word of God to fruition, redeeming and purifying "a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good" (Titus 2:14).

In a Jewish Wedding 2000 years ago, the Proposal was NONE VERBAL, so when the Bridegroom would like ask the girl to marry HIM, had to make a contract with her Father, then HE would go to the house during the family sit down Supper, and pour a glass of wine, and sit it in front of HIS prospective Bride. She knew what it meant. They are called Bride and Bridegroom from the moment when the Bride took a drink from the Betrothal Cup of wine. He would then announce, "I go to prepare a Place for you." He then would leave the old dwelling place of the Bride, NOT TO RETURN UNTIL THE NEW DWELLING PLACE WAS FINISHED. ONLY HIS FATHER, has the right to determine when the New Dwelling Place is FINISHED. The interpretation of your above Post, if you do not know already; is in the Jewish Customs for a Wedding, the Bridegroom could not travel all the way to the Brides Old Dwelling place. He would get close, then would have to CHOOSE a member of HIS wedding party, to go on ahead, stop near the old dwelling place of the Bride, and SHOUT,
Matthew 25:6 (NASB)
6 "But at midnight there was a shout, 'Behold, the bridegroom! Come out to meet him.'

1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 (HCSB)
15 For we say this to you by a revelation from the Lord: We who are still alive at the Lord’s coming will certainly have no advantage over those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the archangel’s voice, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are still alive will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and so we will always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.


The Archangel, has been CHOSEN to SHOUT. I am not going to argue about the timing of this event with anybody, but I think it very well could be Pre-Trib, and if you believe Mid-Trib, or just ahead of:

Revelation 19:7-9 (HCSB)
7 Let us be glad, rejoice, and give Him glory, because the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has prepared herself.
8 She was given fine linen to wear, bright and pure. For the fine linen represents the righteous acts of the saints.
9 Then he said to me, “Write: Those invited to the marriage feast of the Lamb are fortunate!” He also said to me, “These words of God are true.”

I have no problem with that either. I will not get into the debate on the timing. I think it is wise to believe in Pre-Trib, why? Then You keep ready for the Bridegroom to come at ALL TIMES. If it is not Pre-Trib, I will be equally ready at the Mid-Trib; and if it is not Mid-Trib, I will be equally ready Just before the fulfillment of Revelation 19:7.

Either way, I am convinced the Dead in Christ rise first (Which Includes the Old Testament SAINTS), the ASSEMBLY HE HAS BUILT; then Born Again Believers will be CHANGED, and WE ARE GOING TO THE WEDDING OF THE LAMB. You did know the word CHURCH was added to the BIBLE about 200 AD., look up the word?

Matthew 16:18 (YLT)
18 `And I also say to thee, that thou art a rock, and upon this rock I will build my assembly, and gates of Hades shall not prevail against it;

HE also called the Old Testament Saints, His Assembly too.

John 10:16 (HCSB)
16 But I have other sheep that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will listen to My voice. Then there will be one flock, one shepherd. [At the CALLING OUT OF THE BRIDE.]

2 Timothy 1:9 (HCSB)
9 He has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.
(Present tense - The way of salvation was planned from the foundation of the earth, but the apostle Paul, and everyone else, are only saved during their own lifetime.)

Titus 3:5-7 (HCSB)
5 He saved us— not by works of righteousness that we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit.
(Present tense, ‘He saves us NOW'.)

Ephesians 2:4-5 (HCSB)
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love that He had for us,
5 made us alive with the Messiah even though we were dead in trespasses. You are saved by grace!
(Present tense, we were dead in trespasses and sin, but NOW we are made alive.)

Romans 4:4-5 (NET)
4 Now to the one who works, his pay is not credited due to grace but due to obligation.
5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous, his faith is credited as righteousness.
(Salvation is not by the works, notice the emphatic rejection of works in all the scriptures, but rather salvation is for those who believe with their heart and soul, while we yet live.)

Thank God for the new birth! For He is not a God who takes pleasure in evil; with Him the wicked cannot dwell. The arrogant cannot stand in His presence; He hates all who do wrong. He destroys those who tell lies; bloodthirsty and deceitful men the Lord abhors. But I, by His great love will come into His house; in fear will I bow down toward His holy temple.

Lead me, O Lord, in Your righteousness because of my enemies - make straight Your way before me. Not a word from their mouth can be trusted; their heart is filled with destruction. Their throat is an open grave; with their tongue they speak deceit. Declare them guilty, O God! Let their intrigues be their downfall. Banish them for their many sins, for they have rebelled against You.

But let all who take refuge in You be glad; let them ever sing for joy. Spread Your protection over them, that those who love Your name may rejoice in You. For surely, O Lord, You bless the righteous; You surround them with You favor as with a shield. Psalm 5:4-12

But let him who does wrong continue to do wrong; let him who is vile continue to be vile; let him who does right continue to do right; and let him who is holy continue to be holy. Amen. Come, Lord Jesus. (Rev.22:11,20b)

The verbs you said are present tense verbs are not present tense verbs.

This is laughable. It doesn't take much scrolling back on your posts to identify the hypocrisy you peddle. How you have attacked almost anybody who doesn't agree with your worldviews. With some pretty colourful language. How you haven't been banned already or sanctioned is a surprise to be honest. So it is laughable when you suddenly feel offended and play the victim here. I'm not buying it. Now we can get back to bible discussion - this matter is settled.

This is laughable. It doesn't take much scrolling back on your posts to identify the hypocrisy you peddle. How you have attacked almost anybody who doesn't agree with your worldviews. With some pretty colourful language. How you haven't been banned already or sanctioned is a surprise to be honest. So it is laughable when you suddenly feel offended and play the victim here. I'm not buying it. Now we can get back to bible discussion - this matter is settled.

love how authoritative you Bible-thumpers are.

" the matter is settled", " you are not arguing with me, you are arguing with Scripture", " I am only speaking the word of God".

get off your religious high horse, admit you are a sinner just like every other human on earth , and discuss Scripture from that point of view, instead of your fake moral high ground.

i don't like it? What does that suppose to mean? Does that mean u have a picture of God who will stand with wrath towards me when am in His presence? This is what you meant right? Very helpful for a depressed person who is already confused about some Christian thinking to know that. Thank you. Thanks for doing what seemed so comfortable right there when u typed it out. You are amazing. Good job.

I don't want to have carnal desires...I wish i were a child.

They have failed to take pauls advice. Not only concerning legalism, but concerning examining oneself.

3 For if anyone thinks himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceives himself.
they are decieved because they refuse to see OT acknowledge their own sin, and think they are something, when in reality, in the grand scheme, we stand as nothing Apart from Christ

authority is fine, as long as one realizes that we are all sinners, all in need of a savior.

what chris and rebuilding Jesus church do is give them selves a fake moral high ground authority , and use that fake authority of thinking they do not sin, and then shout down judgement from the fake high perch.

that is the authority i am speaking of.

That’s why they can not hear anyone and continue to bear false witness in failure to understand. They hear eternal life, or security and they go into Calvin mode. So they can not hear anything else. One thing I have noticed in the past few years. The hatred against calvinistic thought is so great, these people will never even listen to anythign anyone says, because they are blinded by their hate,

we used to say the Catholic Church convinced their people through some form of manipulation a bunch of things that no one should believe. Well whatever church these people go to. Have done this to them. Instead of sharing the word with them and helping them to make their Own decisions based on what is rue, They have spoon fed them stuff about their enemy (in this case calvin and OSAS) that these people have no capacity to openly listen to a word anyone says.

If you can show me where I have claimed not to be a sinner or having sinned, please post it here. The difference is, you seem comfortable remaining in such a state. You do not understand the plain words of scripture which accords us victory over sin through living by the Spirit (which many here call works - and says this is to be avoided). So instead of living out what is written here below, you actively kick against it as works salvation....

Philippians 3
12 Not that I have already attained,[c] or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. 13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have [d]apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, 14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. 15 Therefore let us, as many as are mature, have this mind; and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you. 16 Nevertheless, to the degree that we have already [e]attained, let us walk by the same [f]rule, let us be of the same mind.

If the above didn't have the name Philippians attached you it, if I removed every verse number, and rephrased this into my words ---- you would NOT recognise this as scripture, by rather me of works salvationism.

I'm not associated with one right now.
I'm looking for a Bible study.