Not By Works

Yes, the covenant of Moses was a national covenant and was preparatory in creating a people in whom the Saviour would come. The Abrahamic covenant is based on promise and is eternal. The New Covenant is based on promise and is eternal. The Mosaic Covenant said "the one who does it will live in it". The other covenants say "the one who believes will be blessed/saved.

Spot on. you and I are in perfect agreement on this, it seems.

Yes, those who seek salvation through the old covenant cannot be saved. The New Covenant is the way of salvation. Jew and Gentile saved today through the New Covenant. And when the fullness of the Gentiles is fulfilled and the blindness is removed from Israel, they whose eyes will be opened will be saved in the New Covenant, not the Old too.

The Old Covenant is done. It fulfilled it's purpose.

There is no question about how we come to Him. Can we just put that to bed??

The issue arises regarding what comes thereafter, by faith. We "deny ungodliness and worldly lusts and should live soberly, righteously and godly lives" because that's what genuine faith produces. "He gave Himself for us to redeem us [set us free] from every lawless deed and to purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works."

The problem arises when people saying they have been set free from sin [redeemed] are still slaves to it. The world points their finger and says, "They aren't saved." And they're right. They haven't crucified the sinful nature [don't belong to Christ, according to the Scriptures], they still walk according to it [violating Romans 8.] Millions who are not pure in heart still claim they will see God and that's not what Jesus said or taught. Neither does the New Testament or the Bible.

The covenant still is circumcision. Of the heart. And this is just the death part of the Gospel. Not the resurrection part.

Galatians 2:16 -

"having known also that a man is not declared righteous by works of law, if not through [/by means of] the faith of Jesus Christ, also we in Christ Jesus did believe, that we might be declared righteous by [means of] the faith of Christ, and not by works of law, wherefore declared righteous by works of law shall be no flesh.'"

[ ^ "the faith OF Jesus Christ" (HIS)]

Galatians 2:20 -

"I have been crucified with [perfect indicative] Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by [/in] the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."

Here's once saved always saved answer to the Deuteronomy 31 dilemma:

The first part that Hebrews quotes about God not forsaking you applies to you.
The second part about him forsaking you if you forsake him doesn't apply to you.

Do you teach sinless perfection? Do you believe that anything short of living a sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, absolute perfect life 100% of the time (exactly as Jesus lived) equates to "still slaves to sin/not pure in heart?" Christians start out as babes in Christ and the goal is progression to maturity in Christ.

Why asking me?

Melach, I see your question, and I read some of the responses here to your question. Those who respond like to throw this into a CORPORATE category (as if applying this only to Israel corporately has no effect or implication on individuals). They then go and throw big words like Hermaneutics at you, as if there is a specialised way of interpretation, a sophisticated approach, as opposed to the very plain words of scripture.

Well lets put down a whole passage and see if this is purely corporate, or applied to the individual. Read it yourself, put yourself in the shoes of a Jewish family man standing in the hearing of Moses.


Deuteronomy 29
2 Now Moses called all Israel and said to them: “You have seen all that the Lord did before your eyes in the land of Egypt, to Pharaoh and to all his servants and to all his land— 3 the great trials which your eyes have seen, the signs, and those great wonders. 4 Yet the Lord has not given you a heart to perceive and eyes to see and ears to hear, to this very day. 5 And I have led you forty years in the wilderness. Your clothes have not worn out on you, and your sandals have not worn out on your feet. 6 You have not eaten bread, nor have you drunk wine or similar drink, that you may know that I am the Lord your God. 7 And when you came to this place, Sihon king of Heshbon and Og king of Bashan came out against us to battle, and we conquered them. 8 We took their land and gave it as an inheritance to the Reubenites, to the Gadites, and to half the tribe of Manasseh. 9 Therefore keep the words of this covenant, and do them, that you may prosper in all that you do.
10 “All of you stand today before the Lord your God: your leaders and your tribes and your elders and your officers, all the men of Israel, 11 your little ones and your wives—also the stranger who is in your camp, from the one who cuts your wood to the one who draws your water— 12 that you may enter into covenant with the Lord your God, and into His oath, which the Lord your God makes with you today, 13 that He may establish you today as a people for Himself, and that He may be God to you, just as He has spoken to you, and just as He has sworn to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
14 “I make this covenant and this oath, not with you alone, 15 but with him who stands here with us today before the Lord our God, as well as with him who is not here with us today 16 (for you know that we dwelt in the land of Egypt and that we came through the nations which you passed by, 17 and you saw their [b]abominations and their idols which were among them—wood and stone and silver and gold); 18 so that there may not be among you man or woman or family or tribe, whose heart turns away today from the Lord our God, to go and serve the gods of these nations, and that there may not be among you a root bearing bitterness or wormwood; 19 and so it may not happen, when he hears the words of this curse, that he blesses himself in his heart, saying, ‘I shall have peace, even though I [c]follow the dictates of my heart’—as though the drunkard could be included with the sober.
20 “The Lord would not spare him; for then the anger of the Lord and His jealousy would burn against that man, and every curse that is written in this book would settle on him, and the Lord would blot out his name from under heaven. 21 And the Lord would separate him from all the tribes of Israel for adversity, according to all the curses of the covenant that are written in this Book of the Law,


> I have not added or taken any words away from the above passage. Only highlighted the areas which make my point.
>So the next time that Hermaneutics are thrown your way, I recommend sitting back and just reading the plain words of God. Because what these false teachers are trying to mislead you with, that the above somehow does not apply to individuals, is simply to try establish you in a belief that serves a doctrine which is in error.
>Never give the responsibility for the understanding of your salvation to another man. Search the scriptures (including the OT) for yourself, and ask God to show you the truth. He is with you and He will lead you into all truth.

I am somewhat insulted you posing this question to me actually.

You seem to have not read carefully "Discern's Post #120,301" (and TooFastTurtle's whose post he quoted) where he says,

Well enough.
But the penalty for these future generations forsaking Him is still them being forsaken by Him.
I don't see how your argument changes the penalty for forsaking Him.

It's rather curious how virtually every passage that once saved always saved uses to defend itself doesn't really mean what it says. It's like they go hunting for a way for them to not mean what they plainly say. Until--surprise, surprise--it doesn't really mean what it says!

2 Peter 3
16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.

It was happening in Paul's day already.

Mystery of Lawlessness already at work then.

To which I reply (read my full post again)
20 “The Lord would not spare him; for then the anger of the Lord and His jealousy would burn against that man, and every curse that is written in this book would settle on him, and the Lord would blot out his name from under heaven. 21 And the Lord would separate him from all the tribes of Israel for adversity, according to all the curses of the covenant that are written in this Book of the Law,

I do not see why, we should all be proud of the fact we worship the ONE TRIUNE GOD.

Is the Father God? - YES!

Is the Son (LOGOS) God? - YES!

Is the Holy Spirit God? - YES!

HOW MANY GODS DOES THAT MAKE? - ONLY ONE!

You seem to be conflating mental assent with God given saving faith, while standing in the position of one who has not obtained to spiritual regeneration.

God does the saving, not man. (Matthew 1:21-23), (Psalm 49:7-8)
Saving faith is a gift from God. (Ephesians 2:8-9), (2 Peter 1:1)

Mental assent (hypocrisy) can never save.

God given saving faith,... always saves.

No. I understand the difference quite well, thank you.
The Galatians were real believers, yet they fell into unbelief.



....and your point is?

Everybody knows that.
But not everybody knows that their works-less faith that is 'alone' is actually that hypocritical, fake faith that can't save. Once saved always saved has deceived them into thinking it is saving faith when actually it may not be that at all.

And that's why you should keep believing and not cast it away.