Apostasy 101

I don't think we are on the same page.

I would assume you (personally) believe you are a saved person, right?

Why? Well you would tell me that you believe in Jesus Christ, who took your sins upon the cross, and you believe he rose from the dead and is at the right hand of the Father. I would assume you would agree that is a fair statement up to this point.

Then I ask you (personally)....If you were go out tonight and murder someone. And do the same tomorrow night, and the 3rd night thereafter. And just continue every night for another 7 days thereafter (I am using an extreme example here, as you can see). On the 10th evening you had an accident and passed away........the question I have for you is this.......will you be granted access through the pearly gates?

Are you FREE to do the above without repercussion?
If so, why??
If not, why??
Is it ever possible for a Christian to pick up a gun and shoot someone in cold-blood??

If that were true then CHRIST would not have warned us "NOT to be deceived by any man". Christ alone issuing that warning tells us that it is not only possible but is for sure going to happen.

Personally, I'd never do those things.
Now, proceeding from your hypothetical as would pertain to a Christian, we're told those who are in Christ do not make a habit of sinning. And if they do murder people for all those many days, as you describe it, then it is evident they never knew Christ in the first place. And consequently, Christ does not know them.

The Book of 1st John chapter 3:6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning: no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him
The Book of 1st John chapter 5: 18 We know that everyone who has been born of God does not keep on sinning, but ohe who was born of God protects him, and the evil one does not touch him.

Let us consider the notorious now departed and through execution in Florida's electric chair many years ago, serial killer Ted Bundy. If he had professed himself to be a Christian day to day while also murdering and raping women for years, he would be lying about his faith.
Thou shalt not murder.

It may help for the context of your reply if you posted the full scripture as to what you say was that warning by Christ.

Great, now we are getting somewhere. What distinguishes those who are Christs from those who aren't by your own words quoting 1 John 3 and 1 John 5 is whether they continue living in sin day to day. The bible cross references it as such - you will know them by their fruits.

And if we see someone living in sin day to day WITHOUT REPENTANCE then they are not saved (according to what you describe above). Therefore any quotations from the bible calling for holiness, separation from worldliness, obedience, etc (as we see here on forums daily) by some of us who post these things ---- shouldn't be accused of being works salvationists. Because obedience is NOT works salvationism but rather the effect of living by the Spirit of God. And likewise disobedience in the same vein is living according to the flesh. So these verses too should not be off-limits, correct? And if someone continues to live in disobedience we can by your own assertion say that person is already apostate, because 1 John 3 confirms it. Correct?

Matthew 24 5 And Jesus, answering them, began to say: “Take heed that no one deceives you. 6 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am He,’ and will deceive many.

Matthew 24
22 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

The problem that everyone seems to not Acknowledge, is that Satan is coming TO DECEIVE. And when his time is up, there WILL BE those followed him. Right now they are the ones who "believe" and have faith, and LOVE GOD, yet they will also be deceived by Satan. That is why the first "seal" to have in your "forehead" or brain is THE false one is coming, so don't be deceived by any man.


Isaiah 14:3 And it shall come to pass in the day that the LORD shall give thee rest from thy sorrow, and from thy fear, and from the hard bondage wherein thou wast made to serve,

Isaiah 14:4 That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!

Isaiah 14:5 The LORD hath broken the staff of the wicked, and the sceptre of the rulers.

Isaiah 14:6 He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke, he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, and none hindereth.

Isaiah 14:7 The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing.

Isaiah 14:8 Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us.

Isaiah 14:9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.

Isaiah 14:10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?

Isaiah 14:11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.

Isaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Isaiah 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

Isaiah 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

Isaiah 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

Isaiah 14:16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;

Satan at one time had faith. Doesn't now.

No he didn't.

So much so he wants to be HIM. And believes he can. Till iniquity was found... before that he protected the Mercy Seat.

There are many who contend against works salvation, but it is a red herring from the start. Whereas Jesus said, if you love me keep my commands. Keeping Jesus commands is not works.
Doing good things, working for the kingdom, is also not evidence of working either to gain salvation or to keep it. Rather, it is an example, the fruit if you will, of being saved.

It seems you believe the Christian must be perfect in order to prove themselves saved. And the moment they do something wrong, that is evidence they are not.
That's not true. Christians can and do make mistakes, however, unlike our state prior to being reborn in Christ, those are not sins that are counted against us. Our sins when we repented of them were put under the blood of Christ. We are no longer considered sinner in the manner we once were. And when we do make mistakes we have an advocate between ourselves and God in Christ.
Repentance for our mistakes isn't to allow an all knowing Father to know we made a mistake. Rather, it is our act of humility wherein we realize we made a mistake and are heartily sorry. That mistake(s) do not mean we are not actually in Christ. It means while in Christ and reborn in Him that we are still human living in a fallen world that we navigate by God's grace and leading of Him that is the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Someone who professes to be a Christian and doesn't change, is someone who is living a lie. If someone says, I found Christ! And yet they live as they formerly did, drugging, drinking, carousing with women, etc... those are the one's that are not apostate, becasue in order to be that one has to actually be in faith in the first place, but rather are like unto those Jesus talked about when they departed His and the Apostles company. They were never one with Jesus.

An actual Christian can backslide, and that can be labeled apostasy or being an apostate, because they deserted the faith and values they once held sacred. Maybe, as an example, their spouse was diagnosed with cancer and despite that Christian's prayers and beseeching God for their healing the spouse dies.
That brokenhearted survivor spouse may feel betrayed by God, or whatever else, and believe they lost faith due to their spouses passing. However, when God knows who are His sheep, there is no thing we can do that will remove us from Christ's hand. As He tells us.
There is a difference between an actual Christian backsliding and what is labeled a nominal (name only) Christian. The former is forever in Christ. The latter never was.

There are many scriptures that testify that a person can fall from grace if they were saved and were led of the Spirit and went back to living like the world and got caught with their pants down so to speak for they died and were holding unto sin, or they believed they could hold unto sin and be right with God.

Isa 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Heb 3:7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
Heb 3:8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
Heb 3:9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
Heb 3:10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
Heb 3:11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)
Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
Heb 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end.

There is no difference between the Old Testament and the New Testament for if we go back to sin and hold unto sin then we will be cut off like the Jews that would not go by the truth were cut off.

2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

If they go back to the world and hold unto sin and do not correct it then it would have been better for them to not have known the way of righteousness than to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.

Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Heb 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
Heb 6:3 And this will we do, if God permit.
Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

If they leave the truth that Jesus is Lord and Savior for an alternate reality whether being an atheist, or another religion, then they cannot be saved again for they went back to the world and forfeited everything and God will not allow them to go through the process of being saved again by having faith, repenting, confessing Christ, and the essentials.

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
1Ti 4:3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
1Ti 4:4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
1Ti 4:5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

This is an example that some will depart from the faith so they were in the faith but they departed from the faith for an alternate reality by embracing the new age movement interpretation of the Bible that shall come out at the latter times which is now which is based on the occult, and evolution, and people are still evolving to be greater and spiritual provided by the New Age Christ, and Jesus is not Lord and Savior, but a good teacher and love, and evolved to be an ascended master and avatar, but not the final teacher which the New Age Christ is the final teacher which they believe will have the Christ conscience and evolve and will share this power with all people who follow him and they will be like the man Jesus spiritual.

These people cannot be saved again for they embraced an alternate reality other than Jesus is Lord and Savior.

But if someone never embraced Christianity but went by the new age movement and comes to the belief that Jesus is Lord and Savior they can be saved for they never left Christianity.

1Co 9:26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
1Co 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

adokimos
ad-ok'-ee-mos
From G1 (as a negative particle) and G1384; unapproved, that is, rejected; by implication worthless (literally or morally): - castaway, rejected, reprobate.

Paul said if he did not keep under his body abstain from sin he would be a castaway.

1Co 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
1Co 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

When people think they stand and cannot fall they might get relaxed in their walk with God and hold unto sin and think they are alright with God.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Luk 12:46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
Luk 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
Luk 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

If we hold unto sin then the blood of Christ cannot wash it away, and those that despised Moses law died without mercy, so if we despise to be like Christ abstaining from sin then it will be worse for a hypocritical Christian will have it worse than the world for the Christian should know the will of God, which Jesus said not all people who say Lord Lord will be able to enter heaven for they were workers of iniquity and did not do the will of the Father.

A person can be saved and received the Spirit and fall away from grace which there is no excuse for if a person hates sin, and does not want sin, by the Spirit they can abstain from sin, for a Spirit led life will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh, for they have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts, and show the ways of the Spirit which then they are not under the law which means the law cannot touch them for prosecution.

Continued,

Continued,

1Co 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Love is greater than faith, and faith works by love, and love is the fulfilling of the law.

1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

1Ti 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
1Ti 6:6 But godliness with contentment is great gain.
1Ti 6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil(neglects the poor and needy): which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

Jas 2:6 But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats?
Jas 2:7 Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?
Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
Jas 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

1Jn 3:17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
1Jn 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

If a person lacks love then they have no faith in their life to be saved and many people believe the prosperity Gospel, money and material things for their wants above their needs, and a lot of preachers, so they lack faith, and in America there are many of them all the while they think faith will save them.

2Ti 3:4 lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2Ti 3:6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Mat 22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

But some people that confessed Christ never received the Spirit so they were not chosen, and were led of the flesh but thought they were saved, and ever learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth for they would not let go of the flesh, and a little leaven leavens the whole lump, so toning it down does not mean still saved for there is still sin in their life.

2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

The Lord knows them that are His who are those who abstain from sin led by the Spirit which they are sealed for they have the proper attitude that sin does affect their relationship with God so they will not hold unto sin, and if they sin they will get rid of it and keep moving forward where those without the Spirit will hold unto sin and believe they still have salvation.

Here is my dilemma. I believe that once you have taken Christ as your Lord and Savior and are TRULY become a new creature, you are guaranteed salvation BECAUSE that is the first of many steps on the straight and narrow path that that new person forever walks.

That said, the problem with the "doctrine" of OSASed is that the doctrine in itself is deceptive and as such is used by deceptive men for purposes NOT of God and lends to the "casual" and comfortable with not moving closer to Christ people to believe the lie that they having had faith for a moment, are good forever. Like the seed on the ground that took then failed, IT TOOK, (were saved) but failed (lost it).

Now what I am hoping is you can 1. understand what I just wrote and 2. word it correctly for me.

I am not expecting, just asking because I have been trying to word this for a long time and what I know in my head I can't put into words. Maybe they should have made the doctrine to be Once TRULY saved and dedicated to the Way, always saved. I could accept that. It may be a truth, but it is not a doctrine.

Any how, thank you for the posts. Very well put together IMO.

This verse......

Romans 11v29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Is being used in the wrong context to uphold certain doctrinal positions. It is being used as a promise of God that an INDIVDUAL cannot lose their gift of salvation once they believe (at some point in time) the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Notice two objects here: (1) Gifts and (2) Calling.

Now lets put two verses in the bible in opposition to the above (they are in reality not in opposition, but will be seen to be in opposition if you hold the above doctrinal worldview).

Matthew 22v14 “For many are called, but few are chosen.”
-There is a distinction between the called and the chosen. What happens to those who are not chosen (but were called)?

and the second opposing text

Hebrews 6v4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 [c]if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
- here we have those who have clearly tasted the gift, were enlightened, partook in the Holy Spirit (yes full on believers) but falling away to the point where repentance is no longer possible.

If you take Romans 11v29 to be true for individual election you have a serious problem explaining Hebrew 6v4 and Matthew 22v14. So then you come up with a myriad of way of twisting and contorting Matthew 22v14 and Hebrews 6v4 to force fit what you want (you want Romans 11v29 to be the true).

But the reality is this: Romans 11v29 is a CORPORATE ELECTION scripture and not an individual election scripture. Even Calvin admits to it. https://www.ligonier.org/learn/devotionals/gods-irrevocable-gifts-and-calling/

Lets look at the whole passage of Romans 11v29 in context:

Romans 11
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own [f]opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”
28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.

I 100% agree. But that doctrine woven together from the truth is become more important than the truth. Pride goeth before a fall is ever so evident. I have explained it before but never get anyone to address it. They get STUCK in it, unable to admit it and unable to move forward from it because any forward movement only gives more proof of the fallacy of it.
I just hope these are those who have been made blind by God and that it will soon change

The doctrine is NOT OSAS but "the eternal security of the believer in Christ". And if that is not God's truth, then there is no need for the Gospel.

I am simply correcting a misunderstanding of what was written to the Galatians. While believers are not perfect, the grace of God and the finished work of Christ are perfect. And that is where your focus should be.

It isn't the eternal salvation part, it is the "then never really were saved" that I don't believe. I believe Jesus saves all who come to him just as I believe God will not be mocked.

What is it to be saved?

If one TRULY believes and thinks and feels with the same faith and love at the moment they are saved that everyone does, how can you then turn around and say they "never really were"?

Are you saying that for them, in that moment that "Jesus didn't really save them but he really did us"?


Now I believe that Jesus saves whomsoever would (the strait gate) but if you don't go (the narrow way) it will be lost.

Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat
Matthew 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life (strait gate) , and few there be that find it (narrow way).

Matthew 22:14 For many are called (the strait gate), but few are chosen (the narrow way).

Luke 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in (strait gate) , and shall not be able (narrow way)

The OSAS doctrine just says there is a strait gate, but does not account for the narrow way but instead renders the "saving moment" as never having happened.

Salvation that can be lost can also falls under
Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, (strait gate) shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven (narrow way)

Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, (strait gate) have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (narrow way).

Just to avert the post pointing it out, it is missing the NOT (narrow way)