Apostasy 101

Works do not increase salvation. I will say if you lack works, you do not grow and produce good fruit. There is a chance that a person can fall back into their old ways if they are not examining themselves to see if they are still in the faith. The real question with ragards to works should be is “ Am I doing this because I love my neighbor and want to glorify God or am I doing this for my own self gratification.”?

So which camp you lie in, when it comes to achieving C? Works after believing, or Believe + Works?

So which camp you lie in, when it comes to achieving C? Works after believing, or Believe + Works?

it will not matter how many times you agree that salvation is by faith, the minute you want to put that faith into action you are going to be accused for working for your salvation

then you will be told that yes, you should act as becomes a believer, so confusion takes over

I can only attest to what was done for me. The power of God through His salvation first brought to my faith. As my faith began to grow so did my desire to honor Him by how I conduct my daily life. I still fall very short to my dismay. However, I do have more compassion for my fellow man. I just hope and pray that when people encounter me, they don’t just see a “Nice Guy” but see the spirit of truth. I want them to see Jesus. What’s works mean to me.

well confusing working for your salvation with actually BEING one who is a 'doer of the word' is par for the course for quite a few it seems

it will not matter how many times you agree that salvation is by faith, the minute you want to put that faith into action you are going to be accused for working for your salvation

then you will be told that yes, you should act as becomes a believer, so confusion takes over

I don't get into this outrageously detrimental debate because it gets real ugly

and it doesn't have to

The only time you would be accused of the thought of "working for your salvation" is when you attempt to show that salvation can be lost by something you do or don't do (work).

It is beyond obvious to people who actually know what salvation is that if it wasn't earned by works then it can't be lost by works (or lack thereof).

The weirdest thing is when a legalist says salvation is by faith but here are the hundreds of ways you can lose that salvation and here is how you have to work at those requirements to maintain that salvation. But salvation is not about works!!!!????? How can it not be about works if there are so many requirements that must be met in order to not lose salvation?

Just because someone states something over and over doesn't mean they have any understanding of what they are saying.

I've been in numerous conversations with multiple people over the years on various Christian forums who ALL claim they don't teach salvation by works in any way, shape or form, but then turn around and teach we are initially saved through faith, but ultimately our salvation is maintained by works (some even teach that salvation is maintained through sinless perfection). Yet others teach that we are saved through "these" works (good works/works of obedience etc..) and just not "those" works (works of the law) and still others (misguided teachers of the law) teach salvation by "grace plus law, faith plus works."

I have even heard many of these same people who insist they don't teach salvation by works "redefine" faith to "include" works. The scary part is that ALL of these people who claimed they don't teach salvation by works in any way, shape or form didn't even realize they were teaching salvation by works -- salvation through faith (their version of faith) + works.

From beginning "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls" (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is by grace through faith and is not by (obtained or maintained) by works.

I've been in numerous conversations with multiple people over the years on various Christian forums who ALL claim they don't teach salvation by works in any way, shape or form, but then turn around and teach we are initially saved through faith, but ultimately our salvation is maintained by works (some even teach that salvation is maintained through sinless perfection). Yet others teach that we are saved through "these" works (good works/works of obedience etc..) and just not "those" works (works of the law) and still others (misguided teachers of the law) teach salvation by "grace plus law, faith plus works."

I have even heard many of these same people who insist they don't teach salvation by works "redefine" faith to "include" works. The scary part is that ALL of these people who claimed they don't teach salvation by works in any way, shape or form didn't even realize they were teaching salvation by works -- salvation through faith (their version of faith) + works.

From beginning "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls" (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is by grace through faith and is not by (obtained or maintained) by works.

2 Thessalonians 2
3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,

>Falling away - Apostasia

Word: apostasia
Pronounce: ap-os-tas-ee'-ah
Strongs Number: G646
Orig: feminine of the same as 647; defection from truth (properly, the state) ("apostasy"):--falling away, forsake. G647
Use: TDNT-1:513,88 Noun Feminine
Heb Strong: H1100 H4604 H4777 H7200

1. 1) a falling away, defection, apostasy

Is it possible that this is ALREADY happening in the church?

The only time you would be accused of the thought of "working for your salvation" is when you attempt to show that salvation can be lost by something you do or don't do (work).

It is beyond obvious to people who actually know what salvation is that if it wasn't earned by works then it can't be lost by works (or lack thereof).


The weirdest thing is when a legalist says salvation is by faith but here are the hundreds of ways you can lose that salvation and here is how you have to work at those requirements to maintain that salvation. But salvation is not about works!!!!????? How can it not be about works if there are so many requirements that must be met in order to not lose salvation?


Just because someone states something over and over doesn't mean they have any understanding of what they are saying.

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!

Eph 4:22-24
You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; to be made new in the attitude of your minds; and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.

Faith and rebirth creates change and action. How do we describe this separate from works to prove worthiness?
You can end up denying change is actually part of being in Jesus, but then we are the world, doomed to judgement.

If we love Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, then our lives will demonstrate it.

Phil 2:14-16
Do everything without complaining or arguing, so that you may become blameless and pure, children of God without fault in a crooked and depraved generation, in which you shine like stars in the universe as you hold out the word of life--in order that I may boast on the day of Christ that I did not run or labor for nothing.

And then there is the actual Word (as opposed to opinion).

Hebrews 10
26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” [g]says the Lord. And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Hebrews 6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. 7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.

The actual Word of God, which is plain and straightforward to understand, carries more weight than mere opinion or assertion.

The actual Word of God, which is plain and straightforward to understand, carries more weight than mere opinion or assertion.

What this shows, which is probably ironic, is that those who teach that Salvation can be lost are the ones who are actually apostasizing.

What can be lost is an intellectual theory of the possibility of someday there being some sort of Salvation that may (or may not be) possible.

But actual Salvation cannot be lost. Because Actual Salvation is not a product of what we earn. Actual Salvation is a gift of God.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Romans 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Romans 11:29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. (NIV)

Do you know what irrevocable means? It means not able to be changed or reversed. Final.

I find myself pronouncing this word both ways. Irr revokibul and Ir Revoke Able. The second one is probably easier for everyone to understand. Because most people know what revoke is.

Romans 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

I have found that ALL false religions and cults teach salvation by works and also strongly oppose OSAS, which has always been a red flag for me.

teach salvation by works and also strongly oppose OSAS

You know that I in no way believe that salvation is earned or kept on the merit of works, so no reason to go there with me. So, don't go there when I say this: The red flag in OSAS is that the Bible really doesn't mean what it says. Over and over and over and over again, it doesn't really mean what it says in osas doctrine. Quite eye opening when one realizes the extent to which that is true about osas.

There are the few of us who don't teach salvation is on the merit of works, and, strongly oppose OSAS.

Truth is almost always in the minority........along the narrow path that few find. If something is popular with the masses, question it!