Apostasy 101

Well then, it’s really not that bad.

You say the Church, what part of the Church? You do know that most of the Church is with the Lord?

It is bad, very bad. Do not only look at the physical harm, it is the spiritual harm that matters.
When Daniel saw the night visions about the tribulation, he said this:

Dan 8:12 And in the rebellion, the host and the daily sacrifice were given over to the horn, and it flung truth to the ground and prospered in whatever it did.

Does it take a nuclear weapon to fling the truth to the ground or it only takes a man on a podium with a bible in his hand, himself believing they have been sent by the Lord?
The war is not about flesh and blood but principalities and powers.

Again, it is very very bad nowadays.

What do you mean ".. with the Lord"

John 17:15I am not asking that You take them out of the world, but that You keep them from the evil one

It is much more than a mere choice since only ONE in the History of the whole world has ever managed it.

And He happened to be God.



The thought that you are obedient or disobedient DOES come from your understanding.

Disobedience comes from the arrogance of thinking that your Work and Understanding of His Commands is obedience.


What did they need to be saved from if they were obeying?

Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.


There is a contradiction between what you are saying and the Words of Christ.

If obedience is a mere choice why does it rely on abiding in Christ first? Isn't the abiding in Christ the source of eternal salvation?



Very weird how legalists ALWAYS try to put the cart before the horse. You want to be saved? Well you have to obey. Only problem is you can't obey until after you are saved. Quite the situation you have made for yourself.

Most of the Church has died and is with the Lord. Only part of the Church is alive right now.

It means exactly what it says.
'Sanctified' is referring to a saved person in those verses in that chapter:

10By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. - Hebrews 10:10

14For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified. - Hebrews 10:14

As you can see 'sanctified' in this context means the person perfected for all time (not needing to be repeated). But all of a sudden in osas it magically doesn't mean a saved person 15 verses later in the same chapter, same context:

29How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? - Hebrews 10:29

Now all of a sudden it means willfully sinning, sanctified unbelievers in the church, which by the way, the Bible says are NOT sanctified and made clean for personal contact, like an unbelieving spouse or children are. They are to be expelled from the congregation and are in no way sanctified and made clean for contact by believers (1 Corinthians 5:11-12).

They have less chance of continuing to believe and, therefore, producing fruit in perseverance.

I know I'm supposed to get what you're saying it has to mean, and can only mean, but I'm not looking at it with the osas bias that you are that causes you to only see that.

No, I understand there is fake belief, or belief in something other than Christ, and belief in mere facts.
But Christ said the seed in the believing soil of the 2nd type of soil was planted and sprang up.
The problem was not that it wasn't planted and growing.
The problem was it was not well rooted.
(Haven't you ever used the expression 'no root' when you mean it wasn't well rooted?)

In unbelieving soil the seed is snatched away (soil #1).
It does not get planted and spring up in unbeliever's soil as you are insisting.

So many people in history obeyed God including Abraham:

Gen 26:4I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky, and I will give them all these lands, and through your offspring all nations of the earth will be blessed, 5because Abraham listened to My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.”

God does not say "because i put obedience in your father Abraham".
Abraham decided to obey God and it was credited as righteousness. Of course obedience leads to righteousness, not the other way round.

Rom 6:16Do you not know that when you offer yourselves as obedient slaves, you are slaves to the one you obey, whether you are slaves to sin leading to death, or to obedience leading to righteousness?

Nope.

Heb 5 does not say anybody needed anything, it only says Jesus who Himself learned obedience through the things He suffered, was perfected and became a source of salvation for all who obey Him. That's all.

Matthew 11:28

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Who told you it is time to rest yet, you can only rest after you die, and yes, you rest in Christ:

Rev 14:
12Here is a call for the endurance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

13And I heard a voice from heaven telling me to write, “Blessed are the dead—those who die in the Lord from this moment on.”

“Yes,” says the Spirit, “they will rest from their labors, for their deeds will follow them.”

John 15:5

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True

There is a contradiction between what you are saying and the Words of Christ.

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You abide in Christ by obeying His command:

John 15:
5... The one who remains in Me, and I in him, will bear much fruit. For apart from Me you can do nothing. 6If anyone does not remain in Me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers. Such branches are gathered up, thrown into the fire, and burned.
9As the Father has loved Me, so have I loved you. Remain in My love. 10If you keep My commandments, you will remain in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and remain in His love. 11I have told you these things so that My joy may be in you and your joy may be complete.

There are those that remain in Him and those that don't remain in Him. Definitely a choice.

Okay. So what now?

Why not?
Were you born again with type 4 soil?
I wasn't, and I can assure you I've been a serious, devout, Spirit filled, saved believer since January 28th, 1986. But according to you, if you're not soil #4 you aren't saved. You're only a fake believer who has never really believed.

I don't think you realize how you condemn yourself as not being born again by insisting that only the 4th type of soil is the true believer. My personal observation is, myself along with the church, spend most of our time in the 3rd type of soil. Just when I think I've arrived at the 4th type of soil--BOOM--I don't spend very much time there before something comes along to whittle me down to size.....again. But, like the analogy of the Navy Seal, I will make it safely to the Day of Christ if I keep believing in Christ and don't give up. I WILL make it.....if I keep believing. That's God's promise for the believer who doesn't give up.

Did you forget? We've been through this.
I will show you when you show me the words, "you can't lose your salvation".

This isn't one of those cases. Hebrews 10:29 can't be talking about a willfully sinning sanctified unbeliever in the church because there is no such thing. God under no circumstances makes that kind of person clean (sanctified) for purposes of fellowship with believers (like he does a believer's unbelieving spouse or children). God does not set apart as clean an unbelieving person in the church who is living in flagrant sin. We are commanded to expel them from the church so as to touch not the UNCLEAN thing and remain separate from them:

14Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? 15What harmony is there between Christ and Belial b ? Or what does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? 16What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said:

“I will live with them
and walk among them,
and I will be their God,
and they will be my people.” c
17Therefore,

“Come out from them
and be separate,
says the Lord.
Touch no unclean thing,
and I will receive you.” d
18And,

“I will be a Father to you,
and you will be my sons and daughters

2 Corinthians 6:14-18

And,

9I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister c but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.
13 ...God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.” d

See? There's no such thing as the sanctified unbelieving person you are claiming Hebrews 10:29 is talking about. Doesn't exist.

29How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? - Hebrews 10:29

But we know that's not the definition of perfection being used in Hebrews. It plainly says 'made' perfect. Not 'shown' to be perfect.

14For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy. - Hebrews 10:14

So we know he's talking about Paul's justification (being made righteous), not James' justification (being shown to be righteous).

I explained that the 'forever' in Christ's sacrifice is the fact that his sacrifice does not have to be repeated, like the OT sacrifices had to be. And that this High Priest, Jesus, never dies, like the OT priests did. And that Christ and his Sacrifice makes the worshiper perfect, whereas the OT worshiper was not made perfect by their sacrifices.

That's the 'perfect' and 'forever' that the believer has in Christ. That doesn't mean you can't lose the effect of such a great ministry as Jesus'. It means it will never peter out on you like the old covenant ministry did. That's why the author tells us to not throw away our confidence in such a great ministry:

Just read the emboldened parts:

23Now there have been many of those priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office; 24but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. 25Therefore he is able to save completely c those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.

26Such a high priest truly meets our need—one who is holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens. 27Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself. 28For the law appoints as high priests men in all their weakness; but the oath, which came after the law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect forever.
Hebrews 7:23-28

1Now the main point of what we are saying is this: We do have such a high priest, who sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, 2and who serves in the sanctuary, the true tabernacle set up by the Lord, not by a mere human being.
Hebrews 8:1-2

19Therefore, brothers and sisters, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, 20by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, 21and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22let us draw near to God with a sincere heart and with the full assurance that faith brings, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water.

23Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful. 24And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds, 25not giving up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.

26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” d and again, “The Lord will judge his people.” e 31It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

32Remember those earlier days after you had received the light, when you endured in a great conflict full of suffering. 33Sometimes you were publicly exposed to insult and persecution; at other times you stood side by side with those who were so treated. 34You suffered along with those in prison and joyfully accepted the confiscation of your property, because you knew that you yourselves had better and lasting possessions. 35So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded.
Hebrews 10:19-35

So you can see the 'one time forever' aspect of Christ's ministry is not that you can't lose it. It's that it will never fail you or peter out and need to be reapplied, like it had to be under the old system.

I included the context so you can also see that the warning against trampling the blood of Christ is sandwiched right in between these exhortations to keep believing because of the greatness of Christ's ministry.

Slam Dunk.

Its a very good point @Judges1318 @mailmandan

The term sanctification is used throughout Hebrews 10


Hebrews 10v10 By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. (BELIEVERS)
Hebrews 10v14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified. (BELIEVERS)
Hebrews 10v29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? (NOW THESE ARE SUPPOSEDLY NOT BELIEVERS)

Come on MailmanDan. Admit it. You don't need to gymkhana this verse 29 to fit your doctrine. It is plain to see. Why lie to yourself. Why lie to others. Be free.

Hebrews 10

26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.
>Willfully living and continuing in sin is seen as adversarial to God. He calls you an adversary. One who fights against him? How do you fight against Him. Well if He has given you the Holy Spirit who is to lead you into all truth, the Spirit of Grace who is to convict you of sin and righteousness. Now you resist the Holy Spirit (who is in you). You set your face against Him, against His commands, against his leadings.

28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
>Here we have a contrasting passage. The writer will contrast the law under Moses against that of the New Covenant. What he is saying is this: If such a transgression under the old law received "X" punishment, then how much more serious is transgression under the new covenant..

29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?
>For someone to come to Christ, to understand the gravity of who they were in their old man, to fall at the feet of the King of Mercy, plead their case and receive such love when the Lord says "You are forgiven". To feel such elation the first time you feel that quickening and excitement when the Spirit uses you for His purposes. Then for the tempter to come back with His old tricks. For you to dip your toes into those waters again. To hear the voice of the Spirit saying "No my child, that is not for you". To bounce around in and out of sin and repentance (washing machine), each time the sin lasting longer, and each time the repentance being a little shorter, till you no longer are just tipping your toe into the pond, but you are diving headlong into it. No longer hearing God. No longer feeling any pangs of guilt or shame in what you are doing. You have trampled the Son of God underfoot. You have counted the blood of the covenant by which you were sanctified a common thing. You have insulted the Spirit of Grace. By now you have committed the unforgiveable sin.

30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
>Read that once again. Look for the words "His people". He is not applying this to the unregenerate. The lost who never knew Him. He applies this judgement against His people. Those who were at one time His. Apostasy is real, people.

32 But recall the former days in which, after you were illuminated, you endured a great struggle with sufferings: 33 partly while you were made a spectacle both by reproaches and tribulations, and partly while you became companions of those who were so treated;
>the walk of faith takes perseverance. It's not a ONE TIME FAST FOOD CHOICE to SUPERSIZE ME. It is a continual walk. It is continual faith and trust. It has hardships and obstacles along the way. Its called the endurance of the saints for a reason Rev14v12.

34 for you had compassion on me in my chains, and joyfully accepted the plundering of your goods, knowing that you have a better and an enduring possession for yourselves in heaven. 35 Therefore do not cast away your confidence, which has great reward.
>imagine joyfully accepting the plundering of your goods. This is only possible for believers who continue in the faith. This would have broken many who were secure in their one-time-only-decision.

36 For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise:
>After you have done the will of God....Endurance....continuing in the faith is the TRUTH. Don't let deceivers tell you any different.
>Those who CONTINUE will RECEIVE THE PROMISE, all along doing the will of God.

37 “For yet a little while,
And He who is coming will come and will not tarry.
38 Now the just shall live by faith;
But if anyone draws back,
My soul has no pleasure in him.”
>It could not be clearer. You HAVE TO live by faith and no other way. Continually. Not giving up on God.
>Anyone drawing back from the faith (by this it means drawing back from Christ either in terms of profession, or of willful actions to quench the Spirit permanently (Heb10v26) has reached a point of no return.

39 But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.
>May none here reading this draw back, but press on in the faith - ones who (continually) believe WHICH RESULTS IN the saving of the soul.

The word 'sanctified' certainly is referring to a saved person in verses 10 and 14 and it's once for all/for all time.

So how can a person who is sanctified one for all/for all time all of the sudden become magically un-sanctified? They can't and it's a contradiction. For a further explanation, see post #19 - https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/that-hebrews-10v26-thread.189675/#post-4132251

As I already mentioned in post #19 from the link above, after considering the CONTEXT, it seems most likely that "he was sanctified" should be understood in the sense of someone who had been "set apart" or identified as a professing believer in the Hebrew Christian community of believers, but later renounces his identification with other believers, by rejecting the "knowledge of the truth" that he had received, and trampling under foot the work and the person of Christ himself. This gives evidence that his identification with the Hebrew Christian community of believers was only superficial and that he was not a genuine believer.

Paul uses the word 'sanctified' to refer to non-Christians who are "set apart" by their believing spouse. (And by this Paul does not mean that they are saved). So a non-Christian can be "set apart" without experiencing salvation, as Paul explained in 1 Corinthians 7:14 and the writer of Hebrews explained in Hebrews 10:29.

You are looking at it with nosas bias which causes you to see only what you want to see. It truly amazes me to see how everything I explained to you in post #258 just went right over your head.

The ONCE FOR ALL TIME means this: That it does not need to be offered daily, weekly, monthly, annually, ever again - in TERMS OF THE SACRIFICE. Jesus' one sacrifice was sufficient for all time.

Here it refers to this below:

Hebrews 10
11 And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. 14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being [d]sanctified.

1 For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect. 2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins. 3 But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year.