Apostasy 101
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If you've made it to the 4th type of soil, good for you. And I mean that. It's a parable to illustrate progression, but you're making it out to be hard and fast lines of distinction between really saved believers and not really saved fake believers. But my experience shows me that you're probably of the 3rd type of fruitless soil, along with me and most of the church. We're fruitful, yet we're not fruitful and spend a lot of time choked out by the worries of this life, yet we are undeniably saved.
You can't draw the hard and fast lines you think you can in the parable. There really are genuine believers who quit believing when the cost of discipleship is too high for them. The point of the parable is, it's only those with weeded, good soil where the word of God is firmly rooted and draws from a healthy supply of the Spirit that will persevere to the end and be saved. But you've made it a parable about fake vs. real believers......and have condemned yourself in the process.
You can't draw the hard and fast lines you think you can in the parable. There really are genuine believers who quit believing when the cost of discipleship is too high for them. The point of the parable is, it's only those with weeded, good soil where the word of God is firmly rooted and draws from a healthy supply of the Spirit that will persevere to the end and be saved. But you've made it a parable about fake vs. real believers......and have condemned yourself in the process.
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It's amazing that you can't see what you're doing. Even though you didn't go into detail in this post, I know you're literally saying, "they can't be real believers, because real believers don't stop believing." You're reading the parable through the bias of osas. And worse, you don't realize it.
Show us where it says the 2nd type of soil represents fake belief. Then I'll show you where it says they believed with no qualification of that being fake believing. See, you've already decided in your mind that people who stop believing never really believed to begin with. And it colors everything you see in the Bible about believers who stop believing.
Show us where it says the 2nd type of soil represents fake belief. Then I'll show you where it says they believed with no qualification of that being fake believing. See, you've already decided in your mind that people who stop believing never really believed to begin with. And it colors everything you see in the Bible about believers who stop believing.
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And neither do I need the specific words, "you can lose your salvation" to understand that believers can stop believing and lose the justification they have received through that belief in Christ. You keep bringing up an argument that not even your doctrine can deliver on.
All true, with no 'not really's' attached, or strained and unique interpretations needed to understand it.
The passages you bring up are all true for the person who keeps believing to the very end of his life.
It's that simple.
Hebrews 10, IMO, is the definitive 'you can lose your salvation' passage. You can't show that 'sanctified' suddenly means an unsaved person in vs. 29. It's very easy for us to show that it does mean a saved person--the same saved 'sanctified' person being referred to in vs. 10 & 14.
There's no reason to insert a 'not really' in Hebrews 10:29 in our doctrine to preserve our doctrine. There is in yours. This happens to virtually every passage of scripture osas uses to defend itself. The passage in debate has to have a 'not really' attached to it to mean osas.
Preserved forever (Psalm 37:28); Never perish or be snatched from the hand of Jesus (John 10:27-28); And whom He justified, these He also glorified (Romans 8:30); Sealed until the redemption of the purchased possession/unto the day of redemption (Ephesians 1:13-14); Sanctified once for all/perfected forever (Hebrews 10:10,14) etc.. says it all for me. 
The passages you bring up are all true for the person who keeps believing to the very end of his life.
It's that simple.
Hebrews 10, IMO, is the definitive 'you can lose your salvation' passage. You can't show that 'sanctified' suddenly means an unsaved person in vs. 29. It's very easy for us to show that it does mean a saved person--the same saved 'sanctified' person being referred to in vs. 10 & 14.
There's no reason to insert a 'not really' in Hebrews 10:29 in our doctrine to preserve our doctrine. There is in yours. This happens to virtually every passage of scripture osas uses to defend itself. The passage in debate has to have a 'not really' attached to it to mean osas.
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@mailmandan , maybe you'll get a better grasp on how you condemn yourself with your interpretation of the Parable of The Sower when you see the fruitfulness of the 4th type of soil being the fruit of the Spirit, not specific, active works of righteousness.
You and I can be firm believers in Christ, and even risen to a respectable level of conquering active outward sin in our lives, yet be full of greed, and hatred, and lust, and pride and all the other ugly things that come out of a man and make him unclean. And, honestly, I think that characterizes the vast number of genuine believers. They look good on the outside, and they really are. But they are angry, judgmental, and worldly in attitude (i.e. the 'Not By Works' thread) and overwhelmed by the concerns and pride of this life. Yet they are very much saved. And, they may have started out as #2 soil, stayed the course, and progressed to the 3rd type, and sometimes are 4th kind of soil. Don't write off all 2nd type of soil as definitely not saved. Give 'em time to grow. We'll see if the heat of adversity leaves them in that condition of heart, or worse, or if it develops better soil in them.
You and I can be firm believers in Christ, and even risen to a respectable level of conquering active outward sin in our lives, yet be full of greed, and hatred, and lust, and pride and all the other ugly things that come out of a man and make him unclean. And, honestly, I think that characterizes the vast number of genuine believers. They look good on the outside, and they really are. But they are angry, judgmental, and worldly in attitude (i.e. the 'Not By Works' thread) and overwhelmed by the concerns and pride of this life. Yet they are very much saved. And, they may have started out as #2 soil, stayed the course, and progressed to the 3rd type, and sometimes are 4th kind of soil. Don't write off all 2nd type of soil as definitely not saved. Give 'em time to grow. We'll see if the heat of adversity leaves them in that condition of heart, or worse, or if it develops better soil in them.
I already explained this to you in post #258. Now go back and read it slowly and carefully until the truth finally sinks in: https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/apostasy-101.189485/page-13
I already thoroughly explained this in post #19. Be sure to go back and read it slowly and carefully until the truth finally sinks in: https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/that-hebrews-10v26-thread.189675/
How am I condemning myself? I've been a believer for over 20 years now and if I still have not produced any fruit, then I am in trouble! So it's fruit of the Spirit vs. active works of righteousness, which is not a fruit of the Spirit? Then why are they called works of "righteousness?" (Literally, of works which are done in righteousness).
Saved but unclean?
That's a new twist. Usually, people in the NOSAS camp teach that soil #2 and #3 represent saved people who lost their salvation, but you teach they are definitely saved and may even stay the course and progress. Interesting. I'm hearing your own personal logic mixed in with your doctrine.
The parable of the 4 soils depicts 4 different types of soil on which the seed/the word lands and says nothing about progressive soil. I'm sorry but in regards to #2 soil, no root, no fruit, lacks moisture, withers away does not spell out saved to me.
Then why are they called works of "righteousness?" (Literally, of works which are done in righteousness).Saved but unclean?
That's a new twist. Usually, people in the NOSAS camp teach that soil #2 and #3 represent saved people who lost their salvation, but you teach they are definitely saved and may even stay the course and progress. Interesting. I'm hearing your own personal logic mixed in with your doctrine.
The parable of the 4 soils depicts 4 different types of soil on which the seed/the word lands and says nothing about progressive soil. I'm sorry but in regards to #2 soil, no root, no fruit, lacks moisture, withers away does not spell out saved to me.
No one just decides to obey God and then begins obeying.
Obedience is a gift. It is the Holy Spirit given by God Himself that is the source of ALL obedience to God.
That's why that verse says "offer yourselves as obedient slaves".
The Lord Jesus tells us to come to Him and receive Rest. Right now. Before you die.
Hebrews 4 tells us that we enter into Rest because we believe in Christ. Not because we die.
Hebrews 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
Holy Spirit doesn't obey FOR US. WE OBEY.
He leads, but we follow. We take the steps. He shows us the way. We walk in the Light as He is in the light.
1 John 5
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.
Can you find any scriptural support (and I am talking as clear as the verse I just posted), that GOD OBEYS FOR US?
He leads, but we follow. We take the steps. He shows us the way. We walk in the Light as He is in the light.
1 John 5
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.
Can you find any scriptural support (and I am talking as clear as the verse I just posted), that GOD OBEYS FOR US?
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You mix up obedience (what we do) with fruit production (what he does). The two are distinct.
The order is as follows:
1) We love God
2) We obey God (because we love God)
3) We Abide in Christ (because we obey God)
4) God produces Fruit in us (Because we abide in Christ)
That's the order. And when God doesn't find fruit, it comes back to a lack of obedience, because you don't love God.
The order is as follows:
1) We love God
2) We obey God (because we love God)
3) We Abide in Christ (because we obey God)
4) God produces Fruit in us (Because we abide in Christ)
That's the order. And when God doesn't find fruit, it comes back to a lack of obedience, because you don't love God.
As clear as the verse you just posted and don't understand?
Ezekiel 36:26-27
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
What are clues that you are obedient to God? His Spirit within you. The CAUSE of your Righteousness and His Gift. Not your work or understanding of commandments.
Galatians 5:22-23
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
These are all gifts of God that we receive when we abide BY FAITH in Christ. The Fruit of Righteousness which is obedience.
Ezekiel 36:26-27
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
What are clues that you are obedient to God? His Spirit within you. The CAUSE of your Righteousness and His Gift. Not your work or understanding of commandments.
Galatians 5:22-23
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
These are all gifts of God that we receive when we abide BY FAITH in Christ. The Fruit of Righteousness which is obedience.
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Couldn't be more wrong.
Its not of works lest anyone boast.
1. God Loves us.
2. God dies for us.
3. God gives Righteousness as His Gift.
4. We abide in Christ because that is the way we receive ALL the blessings of God.
5. God produces fruit in us (Because we abide in Christ).
Its so much easier to Love a God that first loves us and gives His Son for us and gives us the Gift of Salvation and Righteousness.
It is much harder to love a god that requires you to be god yourself and somehow find a way to be righteous by your own work and understanding and then have that be up to par with what God Requires for obedience.
Its not of works lest anyone boast.
1. God Loves us.
2. God dies for us.
3. God gives Righteousness as His Gift.
4. We abide in Christ because that is the way we receive ALL the blessings of God.
5. God produces fruit in us (Because we abide in Christ).
Its so much easier to Love a God that first loves us and gives His Son for us and gives us the Gift of Salvation and Righteousness.
It is much harder to love a god that requires you to be god yourself and somehow find a way to be righteous by your own work and understanding and then have that be up to par with what God Requires for obedience.
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amazing how all you legalists ( and the judeaizers) use 1st John to attempt to prove salvation by command keeping.
but, as usual, you fail to mention that John said , in this very letter, that the commands are to " believe in the name of the Son, and love one another".
so, to believe is to obey. and I have already schooled you as to what " believe" mean, you are well aware of the meaning.
but, as usual, you fail to mention that John said , in this very letter, that the commands are to " believe in the name of the Son, and love one another".
so, to believe is to obey. and I have already schooled you as to what " believe" mean, you are well aware of the meaning.
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Your red above, is directly linked to the green below. Now I school you back
8 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” [b]“You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
So Mr GB9....
You shall not steal
You shall not murder
You shall not commit adultery
You shall not bear false witness
You shall not covet
Got it?
8 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” [b]“You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
So Mr GB9....
You shall not steal
You shall not murder
You shall not commit adultery
You shall not bear false witness
You shall not covet
Got it?
Your red above, is directly linked to the green below. Now I school you back
8 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” [b]“You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
So Mr GB9....
You shall not steal
You shall not murder
You shall not commit adultery
You shall not bear false witness
You shall not covet
Got it?
8 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” [b]“You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
So Mr GB9....
You shall not steal
You shall not murder
You shall not commit adultery
You shall not bear false witness
You shall not covet
Got it?
as usual, you keep moving the goalposts, changing the subject.
and, do not get me mixed up with the free riders in the not by works thread ( which you ran away from).
I am NOT o.s.a.s..
I do speak the truth that we are saved by belief only, and salvation is NOT losable, as long as one believes.
you fight against this truth by dishonestly trying to manipulate Scripture. you are wrong for doing so.
No - my comments are laser focused.
You said " amazing how all you legalists ( and the judeaizers) use 1st John to attempt to prove salvation by command keeping.
but, as usual, you fail to mention that John said , in this very letter, that the commands are to " believe in the name of the Son, and love one another"."
Notice how your first line and your second line don't gel. In the first you allude to command keeping not being a requirement. In the second you introduce a command. So which is it?
Are you to love one another (Y/N)? You would have to admit Y. And this is a command. You are now command keeping. And just to put icing on the top, I showed you the true meaning of love one another in post nr356 (hint* you can see these same commands in Exodus 20). So if your command, is the same as Exodus 20, then you are a command keeper. Just like John said. You are upholding the law by loving your neighbour, which is part of your salvation.
I chose to extricate myself from the thread "Not by Works" as that has become so warped and distorted that it lost all edification. I bet right now there is a gaggle of geese slamming each other, feathers flying. Not edifying to those wanting to learn the truth. Let them have their forum. All 52673826 pages of it.
In terms of salvation not loseable, start here again. https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/apostasy-101.189485/#post-4121313 - you say as long as one believes. Well I say believes in INCLUSIVE of obedience. You kick against that requirement. I say you have already admitted it "but, as usual, you fail to mention that John said , in this very letter, that the commands are to " believe in the name of the Son, and love one another".
You said " amazing how all you legalists ( and the judeaizers) use 1st John to attempt to prove salvation by command keeping.
but, as usual, you fail to mention that John said , in this very letter, that the commands are to " believe in the name of the Son, and love one another"."
Notice how your first line and your second line don't gel. In the first you allude to command keeping not being a requirement. In the second you introduce a command. So which is it?
Are you to love one another (Y/N)? You would have to admit Y. And this is a command. You are now command keeping. And just to put icing on the top, I showed you the true meaning of love one another in post nr356 (hint* you can see these same commands in Exodus 20). So if your command, is the same as Exodus 20, then you are a command keeper. Just like John said. You are upholding the law by loving your neighbour, which is part of your salvation.
I chose to extricate myself from the thread "Not by Works" as that has become so warped and distorted that it lost all edification. I bet right now there is a gaggle of geese slamming each other, feathers flying. Not edifying to those wanting to learn the truth. Let them have their forum. All 52673826 pages of it.
In terms of salvation not loseable, start here again. https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/apostasy-101.189485/#post-4121313 - you say as long as one believes. Well I say believes in INCLUSIVE of obedience. You kick against that requirement. I say you have already admitted it "but, as usual, you fail to mention that John said , in this very letter, that the commands are to " believe in the name of the Son, and love one another".
no, I do not kick against anything.
* believe- to entrust, to think to be true, to be persuaded off.
that is what it takes to get saved. have what I just said about Jesus.
now, yes we are to obey. BECAUSE we are saved. not to maintain salvation.
and, love is also a positive act. when I support homeless and prison ministries , I am obeying.
because I want to. not because I think I have to, or I will lose my salvation.
how about you, Bible thumping legalist? how do you proactively love?
* believe- to entrust, to think to be true, to be persuaded off.
that is what it takes to get saved. have what I just said about Jesus.
now, yes we are to obey. BECAUSE we are saved. not to maintain salvation.
and, love is also a positive act. when I support homeless and prison ministries , I am obeying.
because I want to. not because I think I have to, or I will lose my salvation.
how about you, Bible thumping legalist? how do you proactively love?
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No one just decides, a command is issued first then one decides to obey or not.
Heb 5 says Jesus became a source of salvation for all who obey Him, it doesn't say He became a source of salvation for those He appointed (by putting fruit of obedience in them) to obey Him; where will that leave others if indeed God desires that all men be saved?
Yes, we come to the Lord to receive rest and we enter into rest but Rev 14 tells us when that rest comes, it comes when we die in Christ. It is also very clear that as long as we are still living in these bodies, we labor in Christ.
Heb 5 says Jesus became a source of salvation for all who obey Him, it doesn't say He became a source of salvation for those He appointed (by putting fruit of obedience in them) to obey Him; where will that leave others if indeed God desires that all men be saved?
Yes, we come to the Lord to receive rest and we enter into rest but Rev 14 tells us when that rest comes, it comes when we die in Christ. It is also very clear that as long as we are still living in these bodies, we labor in Christ.