Apostasy 101

The saved Galatians stopped believing in Christ for justification and turned to the law for justification. They walked in darkness. They willfully lived in that sin. They did not continue in the faith. Yet Paul shows us they were very much saved people who had received the Holy Spirit.

Christ, of course.
We all know this.
And he does it in response to our faith, our trusting.
The performance of Christ's work in you will continue in you and be completed as long as you continue in Him by faith.
That's not a works gospel.
But if you're sure it is, just show us the verse that says trusting in Christ is a damnable work of the works gospel that can not save.

Another hypocrite,

they love to attack you by accusing you of doing what they do every day.

the bible gives the answer

if anyone claims to be a prophet and what they say does not come true, this person does not speak from God.

i think it is in Deuteronomy somewhere,

they do this because their theology is based on assumptions and conclusions.

they refuse to submit themselves to the authority of Scripture , instead they give themselves authority over Scripture , making it say what they want , and not simply accept what it says.

The Lord will judge between us, on that day, who had the right interpretation of these scriptures.

They didn't unlearn anything.

They just got off on the wrong track for a bit. If they truly fell away then there is no sacrifice remaining for them to bring them back to repentance. (Hebrews 6:4-6) Isn't that one of your guys favorite verses?



They probably were just listening to some legalists and apostates that were telling them they would lose their salvation if they didn't keep whatever it was that apostates and legalists think you need to keep to stay saved.

Hopefully no one here does that!!!

It will be a little too late to apologize to all the people you drew down the wrong path of unbelief.

Hopefully, the number of people that is is zero.


Do you think it is possibly detrimental to new Christians to tell them that if they don't work really hard at staying saved they will lose their Salvation? The brand new ones that don't know yet that people say things as if they are facts but actually have no idea whatsoever.

Or do you think there is no harm in a new Christian thinking they have lost their Salvation because they didn't keep up their end of the bargain?

Especially seeing as there remains no further sacrifice to renew them to repentance in your philosophy?

Unlike you, I present them a gospel that does not deny the work of the Holy Spirit. And the outcome is obedience, something that is optional in your gospel. Unlike you, I don't have to deny the scriptures. My conscience is clear.

Unlike you, I don't believe I know better than the translators of so many versions of the bible, people who have a better understanding of Hebrew and Greek than I do. But you know better:

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/apostasy-101.189485/page-43#post-4138618

Roger that.

Invite them over and I'll teach them what the bible REALLY says too.

Only if they willfully persist in their fallen state and refuse correction. The time will come when God's patience runs out and He turns them over to their unbelief and they can not come back even if they want to.

That's no different than your interpretation of Hebrews 6:4-6, except I say the passage is about saved people and you say it's about unsaved people. Either way we agree, saved people or lost, it's not the first moment you reject the truth that cuts you off from all future opportunities to come to the truth, but rather being persistent and unrepentant in rejecting the truth is what will eventually result in God cutting you off from all future opportunities to repent.

I will save you the wait time.

you are wrong , have been proved so by me and many others. you just do not see it, like most Bible thumpers, you are blinded by pride in how well you obey, instead of admitting you need a Savior.....

No, I think Heb 6:4-6 is technically about saved people. I don't think a person could really deny it, seeing the description in the verses.

What is overlooked is that its a HYPOTHETICAL situation, an IMPOSSIBLE scenario.

But even when I disregard that and AGREE with the salvation losers on what it says if it doesn't fit the way you are attempting to twist other scriptures you would add loopholes that aren't in scripture.



In Galatians the scripture states "you HAVE fallen from Grace". In Hebrews 6 the scriptures state "If they should fall away it is impossible to renew them to repentance".


So then the question here is, since Paul OBVIOUSLY knows this, why would he instruct these Galatians who have "lost" their salvation to come back to Christ?

It MUST be obvious that these people DID NOT lose their Salvation. It must further be OBVIOUS that this IMPOSSIBLE scenario layed out in Hebrews 6 must also include someone who is enlightened and has tasted of the heavenly gift, falling away.


So MAYBE the scriptures that you THINK are stating True Salvation can be lost aren't really saying that. But it is your SUPPOSITION that is stating it. Your PRE-CONCEIVED idea of working to keep your Salvation is stating it.




You state that being persistent and unrepentant in rejecting Truth is what will cause God to cut you off. That Truth is that you cannot save yourself. No matter how much work you do God will never OWE you Salvation. It is ALWAYS a gift. No matter how long you think you have been keeping your own self saved. Its still a gift.

You would become repentant again by acknowledging this fact. Not by attempting to teach people how to apostatize.

Like I told mailmandan 10,000 times, I am not saying the Galatians have lost their salvation, yet. Obviously, since Paul is trying to bring them back to faith in Christ, God has not cast them away, yet. But they have definitely fallen away from their faith in Christ. There is no doubt about that. Paul plainly said that:

You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. - Galatians 5:4

If they resisted Paul's call for them to come back to faith in Christ, that is when God would have turned them over to their unbelief and closed the door to them coming back to Christ. One day we will see if they came back, or not.

No, actually, what it is I'm just reading the plain words of scripture.
OSAS is the doctrine that requires so many scriptures to not really mean what they say.
That's a big reason I finally abandoned that doctrine altogether. I couldn't honestly continue to say so many scriptures don't really mean what they say.

You have been programmed by OSAS to only be able to think that anyone who says you can lose your salvation has to believe that salvation is earned by works. But I've made it very clear that what I'm saying is you have to continue to believe in Christ to continue to be saved. And last time I checked, believing in Christ is not among the works that Paul said can not justify. But if you want to set me straight on that, please do, with chapter and verse.

Don't tell me. Tell whoever these people are that say salvation is earned by works.
I'm saying salvation is secured and kept by continuing in the believing you started out in.
And Paul made it abundantly clear that believing in Christ is not a work for which God owes you payment.
Believing in Christ for salvation is not the works gospel.
But, like I say, if I'm wrong about that, set me straight with chapter and verse.

They've fallen away from GRACE, not their faith in Christ.

They've tried to ADD to the work of Christ in order to be MORE Righteous or MORE Saved.

They've walked away from the continuing power of Christ in order to establish their own works.


A TRULY saved person will recognize instantly the error of this way.

Otherwise, there would be no point in Paul instructing them.


You couldn't honestly understand what the Scripture says as a whole. And so you twist it continually to try and make scripture go against God and faith in Christ.


You have to?

How could a person stop believing in something that they truly believe in?

Have you tried it?


Just as an exercise, stop believing in Gravity. Even though you know all the evidence for gravity existing, just try to stop believing in it. Tell me what happens.


You're wrong about your assertion that a person that is Saved by Christ could just stop believing one day.

Salvation is NOT kept and secured by an act of YOUR will. Salvation is kept and secured by an Act of Gods Will.

Huge, giant difference.

Romans 9:16-21
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?


Ephesians 2:4-9
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.


If you are Saved, that Salvation came from God. Everything that is required for that Salvation is provided by God as His Gift. Including belief in and perseverance in Christ.


OTHERWISE, you have people saving themselves by an act of their own will.


EXTREMELY SIMPLE.

I suppose if you understood even the simplest of scripture I wouldn't have to keep showing you.

How about this one. Just try to focus on this for a few minutes and see what you come up with;
Galatians 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

You know the flesh, right? Your understanding. Your will. Your work.

The correct understanding of just this ONE verse should show you WHO is responsible for Salvation and who Keeps you Saved.


By having the understanding that there is something IN ADDITION to Christ that YOU need to do in order to stay saved is the SAME MISTAKE that those who fell away from Grace made.

When they get deceived into believing/ trusting in something else (i.e. the Galatians).
Or they do not want to believe/ trust in what they were believing/ trusting in.

This is not difficult to grasp.

I can, but probably at the cost of my life.
Just as if I stop believing in Christ it will be at the cost of my life.

You can probably find in the news somewhere a story about someone who stopped believing/trusting in gravity.....and paid a dear price for it. So, do you want to stick to your logic that a person cannot stop believing/trusting in Christ, any more than a person can stop believing/trusting in gravity?

R Kelly believed he could fly. He believed he could touch the sky. He thought about it every night and day. Spread his wings to fly away.

No, it sure isn't.

The Galatians believed that things were required IN ADDITION to Christ. Not instead of.

Just like you.


Yes. I don't think it is possible to un-know something.

It can't be done.

At some point it goes from an untested theory to a practical fact. Once it is known as a practical fact it can't be un-known or disbelieved in.

Why are the Galatians just poor misguided, saved believers in Christ, but the law keepers in this forum who believe in Christ get roasted mercilessly as unsaved, evil works salvationists?