Not By Works

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mailmandan

mailmandan

Senior Member
#129,281
Apr 7, 2014
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#129,281
Judges1318 said:
No, Me and Paul:

20 they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble.
21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. - Romans 11:20-22

Continue in his kindness and you have nothing to fear. You will be in the safest place that exists.
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You are taking this out of context. The Jews were in the olive tree to begin with because they were the "natural branches" and not because they were all saved. Because of their unbelief and hard hearts God removed His gracious hand from them as a people overall and broke them off from His goodness (but only for a time after which they will be restored - Romans 11:24-26). We Gentiles have now been grafted into God's goodness and are the recipients of His blessings. Paul's warning is that we should not become arrogant because we might lose the goodness and blessings of God just like the Jews lost the goodness and blessings of God.

Professing Christians who are Gentiles are corporately in outward covenant with Christ so, it would appear that Romans 11 is speaking about the question of collective ecclesiology and not individual soteriology. I see the warning to this collective body, which is corporately joined to Christ and is in a covenant relationship, but how could this mean that every individual in it is in saving union with Christ? Hence the "cut off." Union with Christ applies to the elect, and only for the elect are, "the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable." (verse 29) But since non-elect covenant members are mixed in, Christ clearly appears to have non-elect branches, like Judas Iscariot (John 15:1-8) and while they may be joined outwardly in covenant with Christ, since they have professed faith in Jesus, the faith of some of them is spurious because they were never truly saved to begin with, even though they were among genuine believers. (1 John 2:19).
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
#129,282
#129,282
Judges1318 said:
Yep.
That's why we should keep believing and not throw away such a great hope:

"Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful." - Hebrews 10:23

"since we have a great high priest who has ascended into heaven, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess." - Hebrews 4:24
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Eternal life is given as a complete irrevocable posession based on a belief/trust in a Saviour for it.
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
#129,284
#129,284
mailmandan said:
You are taking this out of context. The Jews were in the olive tree to begin with because they were the "natural branches" and not because they were all saved. Because of their unbelief and hard hearts God removed His gracious hand from them as a people overall and broke them off from His goodness (but only for a time after which they will be restored - Romans 11:24-26). We Gentiles have now been grafted into God's goodness and are the recipients of His blessings. Paul's warning is that we should not become arrogant because we might lose the goodness and blessings of God just like the Jews lost the goodness and blessings of God.

Professing Christians who are Gentiles are corporately in outward covenant with Christ so, it would appear that Romans 11 is speaking about the question of collective ecclesiology and not individual soteriology. I see the warning to this collective body, which is corporately joined to Christ and is in a covenant relationship, but how could this mean that every individual in it is in saving union with Christ? Hence the "cut off." Union with Christ applies to the elect, and only for the elect are, "the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable." (verse 29) But since non-elect covenant members are mixed in, Christ clearly appears to have non-elect branches, like Judas Iscariot (John 15:1-8) and while they may be joined outwardly in covenant with Christ, since they have professed faith in Jesus, the faith of some of them is spurious because they were never truly saved to begin with, even though they were among genuine believers. (1 John 2:19).
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Of course everything is always out of context...no surprise there!
 
Tellion

Tellion

Junior Member
#129,286
Jan 8, 2003
279
354
63
#129,286
Judges1318 said:
The passage is talking about being cut off because of UNBELIEF, not because of sinning:

"20 they were broken off because of unbelief
22 kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off." - Romans 11:20,22
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If only it were written somewhere that living in sin is unbelief...
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
#129,288
#129,288
Tellion said:
Don't worry. There are a number of us who have your back.
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They steal from the Gospel.... not for a nano second do I believe them... but there is something within me just abhors what is pushed.

I can think of nothing worse than to state that what Jesus suffered and accomplished was in vain if we do not hold to our end of the bargain.

Just horrible, horrible.
 
VCO

VCO

Senior Member
#129,290
Oct 14, 2013
11,995
4,615
113
#129,290
mailmandan said:
You are taking this out of context. The Jews were in the olive tree to begin with because they were the "natural branches" and not because they were all saved. Because of their unbelief and hard hearts God removed His gracious hand from them as a people overall and broke them off from His goodness (but only for a time after which they will be restored - Romans 11:24-26). We Gentiles have now been grafted into God's goodness and are the recipients of His blessings. Paul's warning is that we should not become arrogant because we might lose the goodness and blessings of God just like the Jews lost the goodness and blessings of God.

Professing Christians who are Gentiles are corporately in outward covenant with Christ so, it would appear that Romans 11 is speaking about the question of collective ecclesiology and not individual soteriology. I see the warning to this collective body, which is corporately joined to Christ and is in a covenant relationship, but how could this mean that every individual in it is in saving union with Christ? Hence the "cut off." Union with Christ applies to the elect, and only for the elect are, "the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable." (verse 29) But since non-elect covenant members are mixed in, Christ clearly appears to have non-elect branches, like Judas Iscariot (John 15:1-8) and while they may be joined outwardly in covenant with Christ, since they have professed faith in Jesus, the faith of some of them is spurious because they were never truly saved to begin with, even though they were among genuine believers. (1 John 2:19).
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May I add, that just because we have been Grafted in, DOES NOT MAKE US SPIRITUAL ISRAELITE'S. Grafted in branches, NEVER PRODUCE the same kind of FRUIT that the natural branches that are part of the roots of the TREE. HERE IS AN EXAMPLE:

1582908658160.jpeg
That is a total graft, of English Walnuts Trees, into the Black Walnut Roots. THEY NEVER PRODUCE BLACK WALNUTS.
They do that because Black walnuts have deeper ROOTS, and they are naturally Disease Resistant, and Bug and Worms resistant, that plague English Walnut Roots.

I know you know this, it is for the benefit of the readers. Therefore the Grafted in Branches, NEVER BECOME SPIRITUAL ISRAELITE'S. The 144,000, are all Genuine Israelite's, an equal number of each Tribe of Israel. They go into the 1000 year Kingdom of Jesus Christ in their MORTAL BODIES, to repopulate ISRAEL, while we go into HIS EARTHLY KINGDOM in our IMMORTAL GLORIFIED BODIES.
 
VCO

VCO

Senior Member
#129,291
Oct 14, 2013
11,995
4,615
113
#129,291
Pisteuo said:
Pisteuo, I wasn't suggesting that you leave CC. Simply that you need to spend more time with your wife right now, and less time on here with us.. But yes, if you're sure, I can contact a mod and have them delete your account..
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And I didn't take it that way. I wore out my welcome a long time ago, it's that time. I just want to make sure I can't come back in a moment of weakness. If you could contact the mod and delete me I'd appreciate it.

Thanks[/QUOTE]


WHO SAYS YOU HAVE TO CHECK THE POSTS. Just Say Goodbye, and LEAVE, and never come back.
 
J

Judges1318

Banned
#129,292
Nov 16, 2019
3,441
860
113
#129,292
mailmandan said:
You are taking this out of context. The Jews were in the olive tree to begin with because they were the "natural branches" and not because they were all saved. Because of their unbelief and hard hearts God removed His gracious hand from them as a people overall and broke them off from His goodness (but only for a time after which they will be restored - Romans 11:24-26). We Gentiles have now been grafted into God's goodness and are the recipients of His blessings. Paul's warning is that we should not become arrogant because we might lose the goodness and blessings of God just like the Jews lost the goodness and blessings of God.

Professing Christians who are Gentiles are corporately in outward covenant with Christ so, it would appear that Romans 11 is speaking about the question of collective ecclesiology and not individual soteriology. I see the warning to this collective body, which is corporately joined to Christ and is in a covenant relationship, but how could this mean that every individual in it is in saving union with Christ? Hence the "cut off." Union with Christ applies to the elect, and only for the elect are, "the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable." (verse 29) But since non-elect covenant members are mixed in, Christ clearly appears to have non-elect branches, like Judas Iscariot (John 15:1-8) and while they may be joined outwardly in covenant with Christ, since they have professed faith in Jesus, the faith of some of them is spurious because they were never truly saved to begin with, even though they were among genuine believers. (1 John 2:19).
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No, he's talking to saved people: "you stand by faith" vs.20
Unbelievers don't stand by faith.
 
G

gb9

Senior Member
#129,294
Jan 18, 2011
12,329
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113
#129,294
Judges1318 said:
So then you agree that it's about unbelief.
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you do not even believe this.

you think salvation is " losable".

you say that " we are saved by belief, then you undercut this by saying that If one is not living right, or sinning to much or too often, then salvation can be " lost"

total nonsense .
 
Tellion

Tellion

Junior Member
#129,296
Jan 8, 2003
279
354
63
#129,296
EleventhHour said:
They steal from the Gospel.... not for a nano second do I believe them... but there is something within me just abhors what is pushed.

I can think of nothing worse than to state that what Jesus suffered and accomplished was in vain if we do not hold to our end of the bargain.

Just horrible, horrible.
Click to expand...
I can't take that turmoil away from you, and I'm not sure I'd have a right to even if I could, but I can remind you of the comfort that's given when we know that none can remove His own from His great hand.

***Edit*** I know you're aware of this. I'm not sure why I feel the need to say it now. Maybe it's just an intersection of calm in the midst of all the chaos.
 
mailmandan

mailmandan

Senior Member
#129,298
Apr 7, 2014
25,483
13,422
113
58
#129,298
Judges1318 said:
No, he's talking to saved people: "you stand by faith" vs.20
Unbelievers don't stand by faith.
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All the letters in the New Testament are addressed to saved people, but not everyone in a group of professing believers is saved. Unbelievers temporarily stand next to believers, but are eventually cut off. We’ve seen this with Judas Iscariot in John chapter 15 and also with those in 1 John 2:19 who went out from us but we’re not of us.
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
#129,299
#129,299
Tellion said:
I can't take that turmoil away from you, and I'm not sure I'd have a right to even if I could, but I can remind you of the comfort that's given when we know that none can remove His own from His great hand.

***Edit*** I know you're aware of this. I'm not sure why I feel the need to say it now. Maybe it's just an intersection of calm in the midst of all the chaos.
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No worries I am not in any turmoil...just frustrated by people who in complete opposition to a clear teaching in scripture post nonsense about salvation ending and seem to have no conscience about it.
 
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