(Refuting Penal Substitution) Jesus Did NOT Satisfy the Wrath of God On The Cross!!

Amen
chose this day who you will follow
whoever chooses to believe
Believe or not believe one must chose
It’s all over scripture

Jesus cried over Jerusalem because it was his will through all of the it to gather them under his wing. But they were unwilling

Now they are going to say i
Never use scripture. But I just paraphrased multiple passages

Amen ...

Can you post verses to support your claim that,

"Apart from free will you have no relationship."

I seem to have missed seeing those Bible verses. Also, please show me where I said anything about,

"you want us all to be robots."

It don't remember even implying that anywhere. It always though that as followers of Christ, we should be excited to follow God's will for our lives!! I followed my own will too much before God saved me when I was 26.

To do your own thing is to be rebellious like Adam in the Garden. I believe the Bible clearly states in Romans 5 that we are to follow Jesus the second Adam.

"For if, by the transgression of the one man, [Adam] death reigned through the one, how much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one, Jesus Christ!" Romans 5:17

God clearly chooses us, because we have
No power or ability to save ourselves. This verse below states that because of his great love for us, Christ died while we were yet sinners! No mention of saving ourselves by word or deed!!

"But God demonstrates his own love for us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us." Romans 5:8

Pharaphrases don't work for me. It is a terrible way to do hermeneutics. It is impossible to refute what you have said because the verses are all jumbled together, and in fact eisegesis. And that is the surest way to make bad doctrine.

So when you answer my questions, please quote the full verse, and put the address down, including: book, chapter, and verse. If you can't or won't do this, then this conversation is over.

I don't usually post on predestination/elect. The following statement by Paul leads me to doubt that those proclaiming election are on the right path:

(Rom 9:31 but Israel even though pursuing a law of righteousness did not attain it. )

(Rom 9:32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but (as if it were possible) by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone)

Paul does not say they "did not obtain it" because they were not elect but "because they pursued it not by faith"

"chose this day who you will follow"

(Josh 24:15 If you have no desire to worship the LORD, choose today whom you will worship, whether it be the gods whom your ancestors worshiped beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living. But I and my family will worship the LORD!" .)

then I guess the conversation is over,

if you can not understand what verses I am paraphrasing, then I really can not help you..

I do not have time to look up everything at the current time, nor do I need to. Those passages are clear in what they say, I do not need iesegesis to understand what Jesus said about jerusalem, it was quite clear. His will was they would repent, but they of free will chose not to. When the scripture said chose this day who you will follow. There is no form of deep study needed, just take it at its word. Whoever believes, call on the name of the lord, and you will be saved, again, normal well known verses used in the teaching of the gospel. Which show free will, no deep study needed, just take God at his word

one thing I have learned in my lifetime of study is to many people get to deep in their study and end up studying so hard they force a passage to agree with them, and do not just take it literally,

that’s why we have bible scholars with years of education in language study and biblical sciences yet having differing views in areas,.

some passages need deep study (acts 2 for example)

we are just discussing free will, and the love of God and personal relationships. sometimes it helps to just stand back, think of our own personal relationships with loved ones, and just read the word.

Does this make sense?

Yep

yet God wants to give us the desires of our hearts does he not?

and yes, while we were sinners he died for us

but when he came, what did he do?

he told peter to come follow him. did peter have to? Of course not, he chose to. And what was Peters reward?

in all his walking, did he force people to follow him?of course not, he helped and guided and even fed the people who chose to follow him

he also called out the ones who were following for selfish people. And in one of his biggest confrontations (John 6) he even asked the 12 if they desired to leave also.

again, they chose to stay, as peter said, where are we going to God, you have the words of eternal life, we have come to know yu are the Christ,

how did they come to that knowledge? They chose to be taught by God, they did not come up on that knowledge on their own they could have been like the rest, and just their for free food. But they had a reason to be there, they wanted to know more. Except one.he wanted to be on the winning side when rome was defeated, (so he thought)

they showed human flaws.. and misunderstanding like we all do. The questions is, do we continue to walk forward towards God, or walk away when God is drawing us to him?
I know many who god drew for years who eventually came. Until then they chose to ignore the truth god did not hide it from them.

i am sorry, fatalism, if that is what you are trying to enforce. Gives God a bad name, I do not like it, and I will not sit by and just let it flow without calling it out,

however, I try not to get into to heated of a discussion over it, because I know they (at least some) are my brothers and sisters,

Is there any scripture in the new testament that describes it this way?

It seems that, if God was not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9), then repentance has to be available by free will to all unbelievers first. Right?

Exactly! Their doctrine won't stand in the context of any Scripture, so they jumble parts of verses together to write their own narrative. It is an erroneous gospel they teach.

The fact is they are unskillful in the word, and all Hebrews 5:13 entails. They can't believe it, and won't, but they do not hold to a very high view of Scripture, yet think they do. Misusing it, as they do shows this to sadly be the case.

Read Ephesians 2:1-10.

Regarding "scriptures in the NT", it is sometimes claimed by dispensationalists that Scriptures in the OT regarding God taking out the heart of stone, and giving man a heart of flesh, are only applicable to Israelites at a future dispensation, however this is nonsense. It is talking about conversion in general.

And, it seems like those who say otherwise are simply trying to justify their own understanding of salvation.

I will quote from segments of a paper I did on salvation:

Here's the state of the fallen man:

The spiritual effects are the most important effect from the Fall so I will concentrate on them. Mankind was originally created in the image of God. He was meant to reflect God’s nature (Genesis 1:26-27). This image became tarnished by the Fall. He no longer fully reflects God’s image.

Due to unbelief, spiritual death entered into the world for all mankind (Genesis 5:12-14). Adam’s sin affects us personally.

The results of original sin include the following:

• The unsaved live in spiritual darkness (Acts 26:18, Ephesians 4:17-18, Colossians 1:13)
• The unsaved are spiritually dead and alienated from the life of God(Ephesians 2:1-2, 4:17-18, 5:8, Colossians 2:13)
• The unsaved hate God, are hostile toward him and his law and are under his wrath (Romans 1:30, 5:9, 8:7, Ephesians 2:1-3, 5:6, Colossians 1:21)
• The unsaved are slaves to sin (John 8:34, Romans 6:20)
• The unsaved reflect the character of Satan, and as such reject God’s authority over their lives (John 8:43-44, I John 3:8-10)
• The unsaved are spiritually deaf and blind and cannot understand the gospel message without God’s direct intervention (Isaiah 6:10, Jeremiah 6:10, Ezekiel 12:2, Mark 4:9-12, Luke 8:10, John 8:47, Deuteronomy 29:4, Matthew 13:13-15, John 12:37-40, Acts 28:26-27, 1 Corinthians 2:14, 2 Corinthians 4:3-4)

Here's the segment about faith and repentance being spiritual gifts:

The amazing thing is that God himself gives us faith (Acts 16:14, Ephesians 2:8-9, 2 Peter 1:1, Philippians 1:29, Acts 3:16) and grants us repentance (Acts 11:18, 2 Timothy 2:25). Those who are saved have nothing to boast about whatsoever because of this; it is not about human works (Romans 3:20, 27-28, 4:5, 1 Corinthians 1:31, Galatians 2:16). Salvation is God’s work.


Here's the segment about regeneration, which precedes faith and repentance:


Scripture teaches about this new birth in John 3. Nicodemus, a ruler of the Pharisees, came to Jesus by night. Jesus told him that he needed to be born again in order to see the kingdom of God (v. 3). Jesus described this as being “born in the spirit”(v. 5). He described this event, using human birth as an analogy. Human birth is not something that we do ourselves; it is something that is initiated by another. So is the spiritual birth (John 1:12-13, Ephesians 2:8, 1 Peter 1:23); it is initiated by God himself.

As described previously, we are spiritually dead before salvation (Ephesians 2:1-3). Because we are spiritually dead, we need to be spiritually resurrected, or made alive again (John 5:24, Ephesians 2:1-5, 1 Peter 1:3, 1 John 3:14). It is a renewal (regeneration) that is caused by the Holy Spirit (Titus 3:5). We become a new creation (2 Corinthians 5:17). Our heart of stone, insensitive to sin, is replaced with a heart of flesh (Ezekiel 36:26-27). Another metaphor is spiritual circumcision; God removes the foreskin of our hard heart and causes us to be spiritually sensitive to sin (Romans 2:28-29, Colossians 2:11).


Regarding this verse you referred to:

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance

I would read this in light of the audience of the epistle. Who was the audience? The audience was elect believers. Some had not yet been called yet, but are part of the elect. God wants every single one of the elect to come to salvation, and they have not yet.

And, God really does not want the wicked to continue in their way and to suffer eternal punishment, but they will regardless because they need to be born again in order to respond to him. So does all mankind, by the way, and all mankind would perish if God did not save some by regenerating them.

It is similar to the days of Noah. All would have perished by their own merits. Noah and his family did not deserve to be delivered from the Flood. God extended grace on their behalf, and saved them, but he chose not to save the rest.

It is inescapable that God has an elect group of believers who will be saved, if one reads the Bible honestly. However, non-Reformed people simply clasp their hands over their eyes and deny this. They have been indoctrinated in Sunday School rhetoric which is basically some form of Pelagianism. It focuses on the alleged "free will" of man, and makes God their little puppet to control, rather than realizing that he is the sovereign Lord over all things, and he causes salvation.

When it gets right down to it, though, here's what it boils down to: a denial of the fallen nature of man and his moral inability. He can do nothing to correct his situation, and he doesn't even want to correct it, until God acts. He loves his sin. He doesn't want God intruding on his life. For those God chooses, he takes them by the shirt collar and yanks them out of the kingdom of darkness, and places them in the kingdom of light.

I've already phrased it this way hundreds of times here...the essence of the difference is this...

Free-willers claim the man, with a heart of stone, spiritually dead in sin, must produce faith and repentance in order to receive a heart of flesh that loves God and wants to please Him. Somehow he must dredge this response out of a heart that is incapable of rendering it. Reformed believers are convicted that God gives the fallen man, with a heart of stone and spiritually dead, a heart of flesh so that he can respond in faith and repentance. This corresponds with being "born again", spiritually circumcised, etcetera. This man, who has been given a new nature, freely responds in faith and repentance due to the new nature, and not from a stony heart. His stony heart could never have rendered faith and repentance.

All the dispensational claims that the Scriptures using this language pertain only to the Israelites is a ridiculous attempt to hang onto faulty theology regarding salvation. And, it is solely meant to deny God's sovereign grace. He extends grace to those he wants to extend it to. It's all over Scripture, and it really takes some intention to deny it. Claiming that God is limited by man's free will is pretty funny. to me (in fact I'm laughing right now over this, thinking about all the incidences in the Bible that deny it). Someone really has to be blind and indoctrinated to hold this dismal theology. For instance, thinking about Nebuchadnezzar eating grass like an animal for seven years in order to bring him to repentance is just one of many examples of God's sovereignty over those who think their will is the supreme, determining factor in their life course.

Yet, those indoctrinated by free-willer Sunday school rhetoric will stubbornly hang on to their theology, no matter what evidence is presented It is amusing to me.

I am fairly acquainted with the book of Ephesians. When I am not reading it during my reading routine, I listen to it in my car multiple times a week. While I can see your side in some of the language in Ephesians, I can also see the other side.

I would leave it at, God knows more than we can possibly know.

However, we certainty do not know who is chosen or predestined before the foundation of the world. Which is why every human needs to hear the gospel, because we don't know who has been chosen or destined to be saved.

In the morning sow thy seed, and in the evening...for thou knowest not whether shall prosper, either this or that, or whether they both shall be alike good (ECCLESIASTES 11:6).

I totally agree that all need to hear the gospel.

I believe in a general call, and an effectual call. The elect hear the same gospel as the non-elect. With one, it is effective, and with the other, it is not.

Why? God gives one a heart of flesh to respond to the gospel, and he does not give the other the heart of flesh. This way, there's no room for boasting.

Ephesians is a great book, especially in regards to union with Christ and identity in Him. This is the essence of Christianity.

Except that in your paradigm you get to boast you were chosen for salvation while someone else was not.

As well, when I read this post, your paradigm also creates a morally ambiguous God.

Amen! Well said.

It is even more amusing to see someone continue to troll for Five Point Calvinism, which is rejected by the majority of Christians because it is TOTALLY UNBIBLICAL.

And to deny that Christ died for the sins of the whole world is HERESY.

Getting back to the OP, that too is heresy, since the Bible clearly teaches penal substitution for the sins of the whole world.

PART I

Penal Substitution is NOT a “Theory”
Christians will find many articles or writings which allege that Penal Substitution as applied to the finished work of Christ is a “theory”, and one among many. They will also allege that this is purely a Reformed doctrine, and that the Reformers came up with this teaching, rather than it being a Bible and Gospel truth, which all Bible-believing Christians accept (including Non-Calvinists). But Penal Substitution is not a theory. It is Gospel Truth. And we do not need to look at the writings of the Early Church Fathers (or any so-called scholars or theologians) to see if they had a correct understanding of Bible truth. Sometimes they did, and sometimes they did not. And they certainly did not write by Divine inspiration.

WHAT DOES PENAL SUBSTITUTION MEAN?
Theopedia provides us with a satisfactory summary of the meaning of penal substitution.
“Penal substitutionary atonement refers to the doctrine that Christ died on the cross as a substitute for sinners. God imputed the guilt of our sins to Christ, and he, in our place, bore the punishment that we deserve. This was a full payment for sins, which satisfied both the wrath and the righteousness of God, so that He could forgive sinners without compromising His own holy standard.”

The word “penal” is related to penalty, particularly crimes committed by criminals. But it is also applicable to sins committed by sinners. There is a penalty for every crime or infraction of the laws of the land. And there is also a divine penalty for every sin committed. We see divine penalties applied in the Flood of Noah’s day as well as the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah (among other cities and nations in the Bible).

The word “substitution” simply means that someone other than the criminal or the sinner has been punished for the crime or sin committed. It would be similar to having two brothers in a court of law where one of them has been convicted of being a murderer. The other brother would approach the judge and ask that the death penalty be applied to him, so that his guilty brother can go free. The penalty would not change, but the one who paid the penalty would have been substituted. And the demands of justice would have been met.

GOD IS THE ULTIMATE RIGHTEOUS JUDGE
God has many attributes and many offices. One of them is that God is the Divine Judge of all humanity. There are numerous Scriptures which proclaim that God is the Divine Judge, and that all His judgments are righteous.

And the heavens shall declare His righteousness: for God is Judge Himself. Selah. (Ps 50:6) But God is the Judge: He putteth down one, and setteth up another. (Ps 75:7) Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the Righteous Judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love His appearing. (2 Tim 4:8) Here Christ is the Judge, and indeed God the Father has handed over all judgment to Christ: Because He hath appointed a day, in the which He will judge the world in righteousness by that Man whom He hath ordained; whereof He hath given assurance unto all men, in that He hath raised Him from the dead. (Acts 17:31)

THE PENALTY FOR SINS AND WICKEDNESS IS DIVINE WRATH
Throughout Scripture we see that Christ was indeed the perfect and only substitute for all mankind. “Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures” (1 Cor 15:3). Had there been no cross, every sinner (all humanity) would be judged as guilty of death. And that would include the first (or physical) death as well as the second (or spiritual and eternal) death, which is separation from God in the Lake of Fire, and which expresses the wrath of God against sin.

For those who do not understand (or believe) that it is wrath, we have these Scriptures: He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. (John 3:36) For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness...Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them...But unto them that are contentious,and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile. (Rom 1:18,32; 2:8,9) And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: (Rev 14:9,10)

PART II

THE LAMB OF GOD TOOK UPON HIMSELF THE WRATH OF GOD
When Christians reflect upon the sufferings of Christ on the cross, they often focus on the physical pain and excruciating agony of that cross (the worst form of Roman punishment). But God would have us focus on the anguish within the soul of Christ while He bore the wrath of God within Himself. While the word “wrath” does not appear in the Gospel accounts of the crucifixion of Christ, we must be clear that that is what was applied to Christ. But it is indicated indirectly in both the Old and New Testaments. And we have other Scriptures which present the agony within the soul and spirit of Christ while He hung on that cross. The Messianic Psalms may have a double application.

TOTAL DARKNESS PREVENTED MEN FROM SEEING THE AGONY OF CHRIST
Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour...And it was about the sixth hour, and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour. And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst.(Mt 27:45; Lk 23:44,45) As many were astonied [astonished] at thee; His visage was so marred more than any man, and His form more than the sons of men: (Isa 52:14)

THE FATHER TEMPORARILY FORSOOK THE SON IN HIS WRATH
And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? (Mt 27:46)
My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring? (Ps 22:1)

CHRIST’S HEART “MELTED LIKE WAX” IN INTENSE AGONY
I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.[internal parts or organs] (Ps 22:14) Reproach hath broken my heart; and I am full of heaviness: and I looked for some to take pity, but there was none; and for comforters, but I found none. (Ps 69:20)

THE “TERRORS OF DEATH” FELL UPON CHRIST, HORROR OVERWHELMED HIM
My heart is sore pained within me: and the terrors of death are fallen upon me. Fearfulness and trembling are come upon me, and horror hath overwhelmed me. (Ps 55:4,5) I sink in deep mire, where there is no standing: I am come into deep waters, where the floods overflow me. (Ps 69:2) Let not the waterflood overflow me, neither let the deep swallow me up, and let not the pit shut her mouth upon me. (Ps 69:15) The sorrows of death compassed me, and the pains of hell gat hold upon me: I found trouble and sorrow. (Ps 116:3)

CHRIST’S SOUL WAS PIERCED WITH “A SWORD” (THE WRATH OF GOD)
Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling [my precious life] from the power of the dog.[figurative for Gentile enemies] (Ps 22:20) For I have eaten ashes like bread, and mingled my drink with weeping, Because of thine indignation and thy wrath: for thou hast lifted me up, and cast me down. (Ps 102:9,10) Awake, O sword, against my Shepherd, and against the Man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the Shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones. (Zech 13:7)

CHRIST WAS SMITTEN BY GOD AND AFFLICTED
For they persecute Him whom thou hast smitten; and they talk to the grief of those whom thou hast wounded. (Ps 69:26) Surely He hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem Him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. (Isa 53:4)

CHRIST BORE THE PUNISHMENT FOR OUR PEACE
But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon Him; and with His stripes we are healed.(Isa 53:5)

CHRIST PAID THE PENALTY FOR OUR SINS AND OUR GUILT
All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on Him the iniquity of us all. (Isa 53:6) He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare His generation? for He was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was He stricken. (Isa 53:8)

CHRIST MADE HIS SOUL AN OFFERING FOR SIN
Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. (Isa 53:10-12)

In other words, you are mentally lazy, and are just mouthing off in this forum. I've suspected this for a long time.

Anyone who posts in a BIBLE forum, and isn't willing to make an effort to show scripturally how he reached his conclusions should not really be here.

The problem with your so-called paraphrases is they don't work. They are a mish mash of parts of verses that are out of context. Some if it you probably formulated years ago, and have never revisited it.

I believed as you did, a decade or so ago. But I keep reading the Bible, praying, and God has shown me where I went wrong, through the actual Word of God. You are stuck in the past. I can't argue with you, because you give no Scriptures to discuss.

And yes, scholars do disagree. But they know their Bibles inside out, and they argue from what Scripture says, not some mishmash they pieced together decades ago. They are current on their Bible studies. My Greek teacher was amazing, the things he knew. And he was also very irenic when people disagreed with him. We disagreed on the matter of women in ministry. But we agreed on the texts, and Greek words that made the difference. What we disagreed on was the translation of a single word, from Greek. We agreed to agree to disagree. But we could do that because we knew the Bible, the relevant passages and Greek.

You set yourself up as an expert and berate people on many things. But you never post a verse of passage to support your beliefs. Again, that is lazy, and wrong! So tired of people arguing about stuff they can't even support!