Not By Works

(Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him)

This needs correction also - being saved from the wrath is not the salvation unto eternal life. Paul is speaking to the wrath of John the Baptist that came upon the generation of Vipers that came to be baptised by him.

(Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

A literal translation of Eph 2:5 would be "ones having been saved"

You did not prove anything.
You just decided 'sanctified' means something other than what the context says it means because it doesn't fit your predetermined doctrine if you don't do that.
Any honest person without an agenda can see exactly who the sanctified person is in Hebrews chapter 10.
It plainly tells us.

Theologians are not exempt from wanting so bad for a doctrine to be true that they would do what you're doing with the passage to make it an osas passage when in fact it is perhaps the premier non-osas passage in the Bible.

We need to start being Bereans.
It's plain as day who the sanctified person in Hebrews 10 is.
It tells us.
People, just read it without your favorite Reformed theologian's osas bias.
Read it for yourself for a change.

If they did we would not ask

Why won’t you answer
it’s an easy yes or no question

You do not get it. The people in here who are using it say James is saying we can lose salvation. Nothing in the text states this. So you you keep bringing it up. All we can do is assume your just like them[/QUOTE]

I'm not sure theologically deep topics about justification frameworks are "the most important topic in Scripture" but whatever. It's more a matter of format as this type of discussion is better suited to writing tomes on rather than internet forum posts. We'd have to touch on just about every aspect from what sin is and what the problem the cross solved was to atonement theology and finally we could get into justification. I don't think an internet forum is the appropriate venue for such a discussion, it's far too much work to develop for such a format.

The topic of this thread is works vs faith, is it not? I keep bringing up James not to forward the idea that salvation can be lost if I wanted to talk about that I'd be discussing Hebrews 10 or 2 Peter 3 or one of the multiple of other texts that seems to warn of the very thing you claim can't happen happening. Instead I speak specifically about the separation between works and faith to point out that while works of the law and works of merit in the Catholic sense aren't Biblical there is no separating work from faith.

Well, I'm going with what Jesus said and what it actually says in the passage, not what you say it says.
Jesus said they believed.
I'm not going to swallow another osas 'not really' doctrine and lie to myself and others and say these people 'didn't really' believe.
Osas has to do this over and over and over with scripture to make it support osas doctrine.

I see the afternoon shift is clocking in.

Relax, lol.
11th hour and others says if I have to keep believing in order to be saved that is me trying to keep myself saved.

Okay, forgive my FRUSTRATION. Fresh Start!

Micaiah-imla said:

What provoked me to post what I posted was this statement:

A believer is still a sinner, yet is not a sinner in God’s eyes because God no longer sees the believer as a sinner. He gets labeled as “righteous” though he be not righteous. This is not just at the point of belief, but continues through out the believers lifetime on earth.

Is this the belief of genuine OSAS?


I would have to add to your QUESTION, Positional Definitions, AND Reality Definitions, AND What Constitutes the SIN NATURE in man, before I could ANSWER: Maybe.

Let's start with the SIN NATURE OF MAN.

Dr. John MacArthur has said on several occasions, that: "A Christian is NOT SINLESS, but as he or she matures spiritually, they will SIN LESS, and SIN LESS, and SIN LESS."

We have a SIN NATURE that WE INHERITED from ADAM. That is a Nature within our FLESH that has the REAL Nature that Has the Propensity To Sin, and in the Born Again Christian, we have the Spiritual Nature to Resist the Sin Nature to SIN. No the FLESH is not PERFECT, but most of the time the Spiritual Nature wins out. However, once in awhile, the Sin NATURE temporarily wins out. BUT INSTANTLY, we have a defense against those WEAK moments, and it is found in:


1 John 1:9 (NIV)
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.


Now please NOTE: it says confess and that is in the GREEK Present Tense, WHICH IS NOT LIKE OUR PRESENT TENSE, which is a continuous LIFESTYLE OF STRIVING to do that VERB. IT DOES NOT MEAN CONFESS THE SAME OLD SINS YOU DID WHEN YOU CAME TO THE LORD, BUT EVERY NEW SIN YOU FIND IN YOUR LIVE, YOU WILL AUTOMATICALLY CONFESS IT TO GOD, BECAUSE IT IS PART OF YOUR NEW NATURE OF THE HUMAN SPIRIT. JESUS UNDERSTOOD those two opposite NATURES in one body of a Born Again Christian.

Romans 7:25 (NIV)
25 Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

Romans 3:20 (NKJV)
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Mark 14:38 (NASB77)
38 "Keep watching and praying, that you may not come into temptation; the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak."


Sin Nature does not DIE until Man Dies

Ecclesiastes 7:20 (NKJV)
20 For there is not a just man on earth who does good And does not sin.

Romans 4:3-5 (NET)
3 For what does the scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."
4 Now to the one who works, his pay is not credited due to grace but due to obligation.
5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous, his faith is credited as righteousness.

Philippians 3:12-15 (ESV)
12 Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own.
13 Brothers, I do not consider that I have made it my own. But one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead,
14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

2 Corinthians 5:19-20 (HCSB)
19 That is, in Christ, God was reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed the message of reconciliation to us.
20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, certain that God is appealing through us. We plead on Christ’s behalf, “Be reconciled to God.”

Romans 7:7 (HCSB)
7 What should we say then? Is the law sin? Absolutely not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin if it were not for the law. For example, I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, Do not covet.


Romans 7:14-25 (NASB77)
14 For we know that the Law is spiritual; but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.
15 For that which I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.
16 But if I do the very thing I do not wish to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that it is good.
17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which indwells me.
18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the wishing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.
19 For the good that I wish, I do not do; but I practice the very evil that I do not wish.
20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not wish, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wishes to do good.
22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,
23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind, and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.
24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?
25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.


The Born Again Believer, Inherits Positionally The RIGHTEOUSNESS OF CHRIST.

Why? WE HAVE NONE OF OUR OWN.

Romans 3:10 (ESV)
10 as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one;

2 Corinthians 3:5 (HCSB)
5 ⌊It is⌋ not that we are competent in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but our competence is from God.

Philippians 2:13 (HCSB)
13 For it is God who is working in you, ⌊enabling you⌋ both to desire and to work out His good purpose.

Philippians 1:6 (HCSB)
6 I am sure of this, that He who started a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 6:24 (HCSB)
24 Grace be with all who have undying love for our Lord Jesus Christ.
{Spawns from the UNDYING LOVE HE HAD THE HOLY SPIRIT POUR INTO OUR HEART or Human Spirit, Rom. 5:5.}

Romans 5:17 (HCSB)
17 Since by the one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive the overflow of grace and the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.

Romans 8:10 (HCSB)
10 Now if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Romans 5:17-19 (HCSB)
17 Since by the one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive the overflow of grace and the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.
18 So then, as through one trespass there is condemnation for everyone, so also through one righteous act there is life-giving justification for everyone.
19 For just as through one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so also through the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous.


Your Statement is not Kinda Like so maybe I could AGREE . . . . Hmmm. NO, it is so weak, so remotely UNLIKE WHAT I JUST WRITTEN, that I cannot concur with IT, because it is very MISLEADING.

Lol
to those who have true saving faith they do not need James or romans. We know we are saved by faith alone but faith is never alone

Romans is attacking legalism or a salvation maintained by works
James is attacking people who claim to have faith but in reality are just playing a game. They have no faith in god period

Then be clear enough to state that your definition of faith includes work.

I'm not sure theologically deep topics about justification frameworks are "the most important topic in Scripture" but whatever. It's more a matter of format as this type of discussion is better suited to writing tomes on rather than internet forum posts. We'd have to touch on just about every aspect from what sin is and what the problem the cross solved was to atonement theology and finally we could get into justification. I don't think an internet forum is the appropriate venue for such a discussion, it's far too much work to develop for such a format.

The topic of this thread is works vs faith, is it not? I keep bringing up James not to forward the idea that salvation can be lost if I wanted to talk about that I'd be discussing Hebrews 10 or 2 Peter 3 or one of the multiple of other texts that seems to warn of the very thing you claim can't happen happening. Instead I speak specifically about the separation between works and faith to point out that while works of the law and works of merit in the Catholic sense aren't Biblical there is no separating work from faith.[/QUOTE]
The topic of this thread is how is one justified by grace through faith
or grace through faith plus works

Ie it is a thread which is apprised to salvation by works

it helps when you understand the topic


sanctification and Christian growth is not the topic

There goes dinner, from my mouth all over the living room wall. 😆

Separating "saving faith" from sanctification is a false separation, though. Theoretically we can untangle it and put them all in neat little doctrinal boxes but practical living doesn't allow us to make such distinctions so I see no reason to afford such. It's a packaged deal.

Correction:

Yes that is you trying to keep yourself saved.

Good try Mr. Twisty.

My glasses are there for a reason to pinpoint people's contradictions and false attributions.

I disagree....another misnomer peddled by inept pastors, teachers and those that do not know the word of God....We are to judge ALL THINGS by the word of God...up to and including gospels, each other and what churches/pastors even teach....

What business of mine is it to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? <---The answer to this is YES.....the problem is two fold

a. Don't judge by opinion....

b. JUDGE correctly by the word OF GOD

And the STICK WE JUDGE EACH OTHER BY, WILL BE LAID TO US....if we judge strictly by the WORD of GOD we will indeed JUDGE RIGHTEOUSLY!!

Disagree totally.......and this view above is honestly void of the factual truth that sanctification is dual in application....! One is eternally and positionally applied because of SALVATION per faith and the other an ongoing process subject to successes and or failure based upon maturity and growth!

A “report-able” offense?
Whatever shall I do?
My walk with my Lord Jesus would be in such shambles without this site!

I can tell you have NEVER worked it.

It is called the Swing Shift.

Do not the verses you cite emphasise the need for a living faith? Not just belief in our hearts but actively declaring that faith. In other words our faith should motivate us to action, or in other words works in demonstration of our faith.

Incorrect read James 2:19