Not By Works

Question, those under the law...how were their sins forgiven?

Abraham did not have the faith of Christ imputed to him. The faith of Jesus Christ was not yet available. For us today after the cross, the believer is justified by the faith of Christ. Abraham’s justification came through personal obedience when he offered up Isaac his son.

You just reminded me.
This thread made me think of this verse the other day:

"12 ...everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted" - 2 Timothy 3:12

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Righteousness was imputed to him when he believed God. The problem with James letter is that he uses two examples of being declared righteous (Gen 15:5-6) and the offering up of Isaac.

(Gen 15:5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be)

(Gen 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness)

(James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?)

(James 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God)

Jame 2:23 is a conflation of Gen 15:6, II Chronicles 20:7. Isaiah 41:8)

Yes, but notice his imputed righteousness was not justified until he offered up Isaac. He was declared righteous in ch. 15, but justified in 22. After the cross, justification occurs the moment we believe the gospel, no works needed to justify for Christ is the just and the justifier of them that believe.

I hear ya - but now you've walked into the justification by works area proposed by the "workers" and so did James.

I don’t have a problem with that since I view James as a letter to the twelve tribes of Israel trying to endure the tribulation. It will take faith and works. Here’s a passage concerning tribulation saints:

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

No more faith alone during this time period.

I would agree the letter of James was addressed to the 12 tribes. The problem I see with James is that is was prescribing law for he Israelite/Jewish Messianic believers and another for the Gentiles - we see this conflict with Paul in Acts:

(Acts 21:20-24 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law: And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs. What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come. Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them. Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law)

Here's the problem:

(Acts 21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication)

T

Not a problem if you believe things change in the tribulation. The body of Christ is gone. God turns His dealings back to the nation of Israel, the twelve tribes.

I no longer subscribe to the dispensational view.

Fair enough but you’ll always have problems with Hebrews and James.

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

No more faith alone during this time period.

I think you are reading to much into this statement.

If we go back to James he's speaking to the 12 tribes in his time frame not some future tribes, the audience is James time frame not future. To me these are the 144K of the tribes of Israel of the book of revelation:

(James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting)

He calls them the first fruits:

(James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.)

This what John is referring to:

(Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb)

You cant have first fruits over 1900 year later. They would be last fruits.

Peter addressing the same scattered tribes call them elect and a royal priesthood and holy nation:

(1 Pet 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia)

(1 Pet 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied)

(1 Pet 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light)

Of course James was not aware that there will be a Body of Christ where Jews and Gentiles will be equal before God. .

But the Holy Spirit put James after Paul's letters to the BOC, James was inspired by the HS to write that, and it turned out to be relevant doctrine for Israel during the tribulation period.

The entire reason for the sacrificial system was to forgive their sins when they transgressed the law. Those sacrifices were necessary for their sins to be forgiven.

I don't know if that is so - to me he is a little off kilter. That's why Luther had problems with his letter.



When was the tribulation period - this is where me and the dispensationlists depart/

James 2
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Please get a KJV.

I think you are reading to much into this statement.

If we go back to James he's speaking to the 12 tribes in his time frame not some future tribes, the audience is James time frame not future. To me these are the 144K of the tribes of Israel of the book of revelation:

(James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting)

He calls them the first fruits:

(James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.)

This what John is referring to:

(Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb)

You cant have first fruits over 1900 year later. They would be last fruits.

Peter addressing the same scattered tribes call them elect and a royal priesthood and holy nation:

(1 Pet 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia)

(1 Pet 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied)

(1 Pet 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light)

READ WHAT WROTE. IT PROVES GOD WAS UNHAPPY WITH THE SACRIFICE SYSTEM that PHARISEES, misinterpreted as a SYSTEM whereby WE CAN BE RIGHT WITH GOD. YES, that makes you a Modern Day Pharisee. IT WAS NEVER MEANT to be a way man could MAKE HIMSELF RIGHT WITH GOD. IT ALWAYS WAS MEANT to be, "I CAN NOT LIVE UP TO GOD'S STANDARD, I NEED A MESSIAH."


Romans 3:20 (HCSB)
20 For no one will be justified in His sight by the works of the law, because the knowledge of sin ⌊comes⌋ through the law.

Here are some Commentaries on the verses YOU quoted:

QUOTE:
Paul said that Abraham was justified by faith (see Rom. 4:3), and Genesis tells us that he was justified by faith (see Gen. 15:6; Gen. 22:1-14). Was Abraham justified when he offered his son Isaac? The question is: Did he offer his son Isaac? And the answer is: No, he didn't. Then what was Abraham's work of faith? How did works save him? His faith caused him to lift that knife to do a thing which he did not believe God would ever ask him to do. But since God had asked him, he was willing to do it. He believed that God would raise Isaac from the dead. Abraham never actually offered Isaac, because God provided a substitute, but he would have done it if God had not stopped him.
Thru The Bible with J. Vernon McGee. End QUOTE.

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QUOTE:
2:21 justified by works. This does not contradict Paul’s clear teaching that Abraham was justified before God by grace alone through faith alone (Rom. 3:20; 4:1-25; Gal. 3:6, 11). For several reasons, James cannot mean that Abraham was constituted righteous before God because of his own good works: (1) James has already emphasized that salvation is a gracious gift (1:17, 18); (2) in the middle of this disputed passage (v. 23), James quoted Genesis 15:6, which forcefully claims that God credited righteousness to Abraham solely on the basis of his faith (see notes on Rom. 1:17; 3:24; 4:1-25); and (3) the work that James said justified Abraham was his offering up of Isaac (Gen. 22:9, 12), an event that occurred many years after he first exercised faith and was declared righteous before God (Gen. 12:1-7; 15:6). Instead, Abraham’s offering of Isaac demonstrated the genuineness of his faith and the reality of his justification before God. James is emphasizing the vindication before others of a person’s claim to salvation. James’s teaching perfectly complements Paul’s writings; salvation is determined by faith alone (Eph. 2:8, 9) and demonstrated by faithfulness to obey God’s will alone (Eph. 2:10).

2:22 was made perfect. This refers to bringing something to its end, or to its fullness. Just as a fruit tree has not arrived at its goal until it bears fruit, faith has not reached its end until it demonstrates itself in a righteous life.
The MacArthur Bible Commentary. End QUOTE.

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QUOTE:
2:21. Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? This question is often held to be directly opposed to Paul's statement that Abraham's faith, not his works, caused God to declare him righteous (Rom. 4:1-5). Paul, however, was arguing for the priority of faith. James argued for the proof of faith. Paul declared that Abraham had faith, and was therefore justified, or declared righteous (Gen. 15:6), prior to circumcision (Gen. 17:11; cf. Rom. 4:9). James explained that Abraham's faith was evident in his practice of Isaac's sacrifice (Gen. 22:12), and he was therefore justified, or declared righteous. Works serve as the barometer of justification, while faith is the basis for justification.

2:22-24. James emphasized the joint role of faith and... actions... working together. Faith is the force behind the deed. The deed is the finality of the faith. The verb translated was made complete (eteleiōthē) means to "carry to the end." Faith finds fulfillment in action. So it was with Abraham. James and Paul quoted the same passage—Genesis 15:6—to prove their points (cf. Rom. 4:3). Paul said that Abraham was justified by faith, and James said that Abraham was justified by faith evidenced by what he did.
The Bible Knowledge Commentary: An Exposition of the Scriptures by Dallas Seminary Faculty. End QUOTE.

It is easy to see, that you have misinterpreted.