Not By Works

[John146]

Abraham is the MODEL of FAITH of ALL BELIEVERS, not just a TYPE, but IDENTICAL.

Romans 4:3-5 (HCSB)
3 For what does the Scripture say? Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him for righteousness.
4 Now to the one who works, pay is not considered as a gift, but as something owed.
5 But to the one who does not work, but believes on Him who declares the ungodly to be righteous, his faith is credited for righteousness.


Now there is Scripture that identifies the FAITH of Abraham. It does not take more that SIMPLE LOGIC to figure out HOW that FAITH is IDENTICAL to the FAITH of BOTH O.T. true Believers and N.T true Believers. WHY DO I SAY IT MUST BE IDENTICAL ? ? ?

Malachi 3:6 (HCSB)
6 “Because I, Yahweh, have not changed,
you descendants of Jacob have not been destroyed.

GOD PLAN OF SALVATION HAS BEEN THE EXACT SAME SINCE ADAM SINNED.
And YOU thought they were saved a DIFFERENT WAY.

LOOK at how ABRAHAM WAS SAVED above. HE DID NOT WORK FOR HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS. HE BELIEVED GOD!

WHERE DOES THAT SAVING FAITH COME FROM ? ? ?

Ephesians 2:8-9 (NCV)
8 I mean that you have been saved by grace through believing. You did not save yourselves; it was a gift from God.
9 It was not the result of your own efforts, so you cannot brag about it.


SO SAVING FAITH CAME FROM GOD AS PART OF THE GIFT OF GOD.
And you thought YOU thought it up, and reasoned it out, NOT.

Abraham SAW THAT GOD PROVIDED a Substitute Temporary SACRIFICE of a Ram, and KNEW GOD WOULD PROVIDE A MESSIAH TO OFFER A BETTER SACRIFICE.

O.T. Believers or FOLD are those who BELIEVED GOD would send a MESSIAH to pay for their SINS.

N.T. Believers or FOLD are those who BELIEVED GOD DID send a MESSIAH to pay for our SINS.

THAT IS THE SAME FAITH, THE IDENTICAL FAITH OF ABRAHAM.

NEVER WERE O.T. ASSEMBLY OR FOLD, SAVED BY KEEPING THE LAW. THE PURPOSE OF THE LAW WAS TO PROVE THEY NEEDED A MESSIAH, BECAUSE THEY CANNOT KEEP THE LAW PERFECTLY.

Now why did I call them the O.T. Fold or ASSEMBLY and N.T Fold or ASSEMBLY ? ? ?

IT WAS THE TWO TERMS THAT JESUS CALLED BOTH GROUPS OF BELIEVERS, O.T. and N.T. Saints.

NO, JESUS and the Apostles NEVER used the word CHURCH.

Acts 11:25-26 (HCSB)
25 Then he went to Tarsus to search for Saul,
26 and when he found him he brought him to Antioch.
For a whole year they met with the church and taught large numbers.
The disciples were first called Christians at Antioch.

HOW CAN the TERM Jesus used be 🡩 Church, before the time, that CHURCH was first used.

What did JESUS call us when He said, "I WILL BUILD MY _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _"
ASSEMBLY, the same thing He Called the O.T. Fold. You can look that up.

John 10:1 (ASV)
1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

John 10:16 (HCSB)
16 But I have other sheep that are not of this fold {O.T. Fold} ; I must bring them also {N.T. Fold must be complete}, and they will listen to My voice. {When the N.T. Fold is complete, then the TWO become one FLOCK, at the Calling Out of the BRIDE.} Then there will be one flock, one shepherd.

YEP, that Means the True Jewish Believers are also PART OF THE BRIDE, too.
Some of you will be rather EMBARRASSED when the O.T. Jews come in, because THEIR FAITH IN MESSIAH, QUALIFIES THEM TO BE THERE.

Question, those under the law...how were their sins forgiven?

Abraham did not have the faith of Christ imputed to him. The faith of Jesus Christ was not yet available. For us today after the cross, the believer is justified by the faith of Christ. Abraham’s justification came through personal obedience when he offered up Isaac his son.

 

[VCO]

Abraham is the MODEL of FAITH of ALL BELIEVERS, not just a TYPE, but IDENTICAL.

Romans 4:3-5 (HCSB)
3 For what does the Scripture say? Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him for righteousness.
4 Now to the one who works, pay is not considered as a gift, but as something owed.
5 But to the one who does not work, but believes on Him who declares the ungodly to be righteous, his faith is credited for righteousness.


Now there is Scripture that identifies the FAITH of Abraham. It does not take more that SIMPLE LOGIC to figure out HOW that FAITH is IDENTICAL to the FAITH of BOTH O.T. true Believers and N.T true Believers. WHY DO I SAY IT MUST BE IDENTICAL ? ? ?

Malachi 3:6 (HCSB)
6 “Because I, Yahweh, have not changed,
you descendants of Jacob have not been destroyed.

GOD PLAN OF SALVATION HAS BEEN THE EXACT SAME SINCE ADAM SINNED.
And YOU thought they were saved a DIFFERENT WAY.

LOOK at how ABRAHAM WAS SAVED above. HE DID NOT WORK FOR HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS. HE BELIEVED GOD!

WHERE DOES THAT SAVING FAITH COME FROM ? ? ?

Ephesians 2:8-9 (NCV)
8 I mean that you have been saved by grace through believing. You did not save yourselves; it was a gift from God.
9 It was not the result of your own efforts, so you cannot brag about it.


SO SAVING FAITH CAME FROM GOD AS PART OF THE GIFT OF GOD.
And you thought YOU thought it up, and reasoned it out, NOT.

Abraham SAW THAT GOD PROVIDED a Substitute Temporary SACRIFICE of a Ram, and KNEW GOD WOULD PROVIDE A MESSIAH TO OFFER A BETTER SACRIFICE.

O.T. Believers or FOLD are those who BELIEVED GOD would send a MESSIAH to pay for their SINS.

N.T. Believers or FOLD are those who BELIEVED GOD DID send a MESSIAH to pay for our SINS.

THAT IS THE SAME FAITH, THE IDENTICAL FAITH OF ABRAHAM.

NEVER WERE O.T. ASSEMBLY OR FOLD, SAVED BY KEEPING THE LAW. THE PURPOSE OF THE LAW WAS TO PROVE THEY NEEDED A MESSIAH, BECAUSE THEY CANNOT KEEP THE LAW PERFECTLY.

Now why did I call them the O.T. Fold or ASSEMBLY and N.T Fold or ASSEMBLY ? ? ?

IT WAS THE TWO TERMS THAT JESUS CALLED BOTH GROUPS OF BELIEVERS, O.T. and N.T. Saints.

NO, JESUS and the Apostles NEVER used the word CHURCH.

Acts 11:25-26 (HCSB)
25 Then he went to Tarsus to search for Saul,
26 and when he found him he brought him to Antioch.
For a whole year they met with the church and taught large numbers.
The disciples were first called Christians at Antioch.

HOW CAN the TERM Jesus used be 🡩 Church, before the time, that CHURCH was first used.

What did JESUS call us when He said, "I WILL BUILD MY _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _"
ASSEMBLY, the same thing He Called the O.T. Fold. You can look that up.

John 10:1 (ASV)
1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

John 10:16 (HCSB)
16 But I have other sheep that are not of this fold {O.T. Fold} ; I must bring them also {N.T. Fold must be complete}, and they will listen to My voice. {When the N.T. Fold is complete, then the TWO become one FLOCK, at the Calling Out of the BRIDE.} Then there will be one flock, one shepherd.

YEP, that Means the True Jewish Believers of the O.T. are also PART OF THE BRIDE, too, because they BELIEVED in MESSIAH.
Some of you will be rather EMBARRASSED when the O.T. Jews come in, because THEIR FAITH IN MESSIAH, QUALIFIES THEM TO BE THERE.

In the second to last Paragraph, I tried to changed the sentence in Italics to BLUE three times before it timed out, which I did above. ALSO I meant to explain that Probably as the Christians were first called Christian, they edited the Dictionary to INCLUDE CHURCH as the Possible definitions of:
ekklêsia.

 

[Judges1318]

Hebrew Church? You mean the Jews in the last days? That’s the context of the book of Hebrews, not the body of Christ.

Every believer is part of the body of Christ.

 

[John146]

Every believer is part of the body of Christ.

Every one who believed in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ for sins. The cross was hid until after the resurrection. Not even the disciples knew about the cross.

 

[John146]

Every believer is part of the body of Christ.

There’s coming a day when the body of Christ is caught up to be with the Lord. Hebrews addresses the last days after the body of Christ is caught up.

 

[Judges1318]

Unfortunately this would take an extended explanation of all the audience relevant scriptures and a massive paradigm shift for you.

Just do one at a time then.

 

[Judges1318]

Hebrews addresses the last days after the body of Christ is caught up.

I'll take the bait.
Explain how one comes to that conclusion.

 

[Judges1318]

Every one who believed in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ for sins. The cross was hid until after the resurrection. Not even the disciples knew about the cross.

But every believer who died before the cross knows about it now.
And better than we do.

 

[Judges1318]

So the one who trespasses loses salvation?

...so silly...

Did somebody say that?

 

[Judges1318]

It is a quality in the believer who is in fact saved according to the Bible.

PRECEPT...
For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake (Philippians 1:29).

UPON PRECEPT...
Forasmuch then as Christ has suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that has suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin (1 Peter 4:1).

You just reminded me.
This thread made me think of this verse the other day:

"12 ...everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted" - 2 Timothy 3:12

.

 

[Finepearl]

Two HUGE takeaways from this passage that you seem blind to. Hoping this enlightens you.

1. Jesus tells them that He NEVER knew them. NOT that He knew them at one time, they then neglected to do enough works so He left them. HE NEVER KNEW THEM!!!

2. Notice these did NOT say "Lord, Lord, did we not put our faith in who YOU are, and the work YOU did?"
No. These guys did NOT do the will of the Father. Which is to believe on His Son, Jesus Christ. They presented THEIR dead works to Christ. Which He utterly and angrily rejected!

Thanks for your enlightenment. The account in Mathew is clearly talking about ones who believed they had faith in Christ and were doing works in his name and in demonstration of their faith in him. By Jesus rejection of these ones I believe he is emphasising 2 things: 1. He is showing that ’Saying’ Lord Lord - in other words declaring we know Jesus and believe in him is not enough. 2. Jesus also stressed in these verses that what we ‘DO’ matters to him and to his Father. Clearly whatever the ones referred to in Mathew were doing - (and please notice they said they were doing powerful works in Jesus name) - these works were not acceptable to Jesus. Why? Because they obviously were not in accord with his Fathers will. That is why Jesus will say to such ones (notice Jesus said ‘Many will say to me in that day‘-future tense) he does not know them. Believing and doing should go hand in hand. Jesus makes clear that saying we believe has to be supported by works in demonstration of that belief and such works that are in accord with his Fathers will. If you care to read my others posts you will see I cite James 2. James makes the same point about faith being dead if it does not have works.

All this has nothing to do with believing that works can earn us salvation Or that the blood of Christ is not sufficient. It has to do more with having a living faith. Having a living faith involves living no longer for ourselves but for him who died for us and in obedience to his commands.

 

[southie]

So how does using the Vulgate version enter into the discussion southie?

Forgive me I'm new and a bit confused, and I thought I was responding to someone else, It won't happen again.

 

[VCO]

Question, those under the law...how were their sins forgiven?

Abraham did not have the faith of Christ imputed to him. The faith of Jesus Christ was not yet available. For us today after the cross, the believer is justified by the faith of Christ. Abraham’s justification came through personal obedience when he offered up Isaac his son.

THE Requirement of BLOOD only POINTED to CHRIST'S ULTIMATE SACRIFICE, THEY STILL HAD TO CONFESS SIN TO GOD.
GOD KNEW THERE SIN's would be TOO numerous to Pay for it all, and they WOULD SOON BE BANKRUPT. THAT IS WHY THE LAW WOULD NEVER account for ALL OF THEIR SINS. It was designed to DRIVE THEM TO MESSIAH.

Isaiah 1:11-14 (HCSB)
11 “What are all your sacrifices to Me?” asks the LORD. “I have had enough of burnt offerings and rams and the fat of well-fed cattle; I have no desire for the blood of bulls, lambs, or male goats.
12 When you come to appear before Me, who requires this from you— ⌊this⌋ trampling of My courts?
13 Stop bringing useless offerings. ⌊Your⌋ incense is detestable to Me. New Moons and Sabbaths, and the calling of solemn assemblies— I cannot stand iniquity with a festival.
14 I hate your New Moons and prescribed festivals. They have become a burden to Me; I am tired of putting up with ⌊them⌋.


YOU SEE PHARISEES THOUGHT WE CAN DO THAT, WHEN THE PRICE THE SHOULD PAY WAS MORE THAN TWO OR MORE LIFETIMES OF SACRIFICES. NOW WE GOT A NEW GENERATION OF PEOPLE WHO THINK WE CAN DO THAT.

HERE IS WHAT GOD REALLY WANTS.

Psalm 34:18 (HCSB)
18 The LORD is near the brokenhearted; He saves those crushed in spirit.

Psalm 51:13-17 (HCSB)
13 Then I will teach the rebellious Your ways, and sinners will return to You.
14 Save me from the guilt of bloodshed, God, the God of my salvation, and my tongue will sing of Your righteousness.
15 Lord, open my lips, and my mouth will declare Your praise.
16 You do not want a sacrifice, or I would give it; You are not pleased with a burnt offering.
17 The sacrifice pleasing to God is a broken spirit. God, You will not despise a broken and humbled heart.

Search the Psalms, and you will find plenty of Prayer for FORGIVENESS. Just do a search for Forgive, and you will pull up lots of verses like:

Psalm 79:9 (NIV)
9 Help us, O God our Savior, for the glory of your name; deliver us and forgive our sins for your name's sake.


Romans 8:3 (HCSB)
3 What the law could not do since it was limited by the flesh, God did. He condemned sin in the flesh by sending His own Son in flesh like ours under sin’s domain, and as a sin offering,

Romans 3:20 (HCSB)
20 For no one will be justified in His sight by the works of the law, because the knowledge of sin ⌊comes⌋ through the law.

Galatians 2:21 (HCSB)
21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died for nothing.

 

[azamzimtoti]

Forgive me I'm new and a bit confused, and I thought I was responding to someone else, It won't happen again.

No worries, I wasn't sure what your point was even in answering the judge.

 

[azamzimtoti]

Every believer is part of the body of Christ.

Yeah but, who promoted you to being the mouth - couldn't resist

 

[VCO]

Question, those under the law...how were their sins forgiven?

Abraham did not have the faith of Christ imputed to him. The faith of Jesus Christ was not yet available. For us today after the cross, the believer is justified by the faith of Christ. Abraham’s justification came through personal obedience when he offered up Isaac his son.

NO IT DID NOT. IT CAME THROUGH AGAPE LOVE to the LORD.

Romans 3:20 (HCSB)
20 For no one will be justified in His sight by the works of the law, because the knowledge of sin ⌊comes⌋ through the law.


What on EARTH does no one mean to YOU ? ? ?

 

[John146]

I'll take the bait.
Explain how one comes to that conclusion.

Hebrews 1
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, That’s referring to the Jews
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; these last days is a reference to the time right before the second advent.

 

[John146]

THE Requirement of BLOOD only POINTED to CHRIST'S ULTIMATE SACRIFICE, THEY STILL HAD TO CONFESS SIN TO GOD.
GOD KNEW THERE SIN's would be TOO numerous to Pay for it all, and they WOULD SOON BE BANKRUPT. THAT IS WHY THE LAW WOULD NEVER account for ALL OF THEIR SINS. It was designed to DRIVE THEM TO MESSIAH.

Isaiah 1:11-14 (HCSB)
11 “What are all your sacrifices to Me?” asks the LORD. “I have had enough of burnt offerings and rams and the fat of well-fed cattle; I have no desire for the blood of bulls, lambs, or male goats.
12 When you come to appear before Me, who requires this from you— ⌊this⌋ trampling of My courts?
13 Stop bringing useless offerings. ⌊Your⌋ incense is detestable to Me. New Moons and Sabbaths, and the calling of solemn assemblies— I cannot stand iniquity with a festival.
14 I hate your New Moons and prescribed festivals. They have become a burden to Me; I am tired of putting up with ⌊them⌋.


YOU SEE PHARISEES THOUGHT WE CAN DO THAT, WHEN THE PRICE THE SHOULD PAY WAS MORE THAN TWO OR MORE LIFETIMES OF SACRIFICES. NOW WE GOT A NEW GENERATION OF PEOPLE WHO THINK WE CAN DO THAT.

HERE IS WHAT GOD REALLY WANTS.

Psalm 34:18 (HCSB)
18 The LORD is near the brokenhearted; He saves those crushed in spirit.

Psalm 51:13-17 (HCSB)
13 Then I will teach the rebellious Your ways, and sinners will return to You.
14 Save me from the guilt of bloodshed, God, the God of my salvation, and my tongue will sing of Your righteousness.
15 Lord, open my lips, and my mouth will declare Your praise.
16 You do not want a sacrifice, or I would give it; You are not pleased with a burnt offering.
17 The sacrifice pleasing to God is a broken spirit. God, You will not despise a broken and humbled heart.

Search the Psalms, and you will find plenty of Prayer for FORGIVENESS. Just do a search for Forgive, and you will pull up lots of verses like:

Psalm 79:9 (NIV)
9 Help us, O God our Savior, for the glory of your name; deliver us and forgive our sins for your name's sake.


Romans 8:3 (HCSB)
3 What the law could not do since it was limited by the flesh, God did. He condemned sin in the flesh by sending His own Son in flesh like ours under sin’s domain, and as a sin offering,

Romans 3:20 (HCSB)
20 For no one will be justified in His sight by the works of the law, because the knowledge of sin ⌊comes⌋ through the law.

Galatians 2:21 (HCSB)
21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died for nothing.

The entire reason for the sacrificial system was to forgive their sins when they transgressed the law. Those sacrifices were necessary for their sins to be forgiven.

 

[John146]

THE Requirement of BLOOD only POINTED to CHRIST'S ULTIMATE SACRIFICE, THEY STILL HAD TO CONFESS SIN TO GOD.
GOD KNEW THERE SIN's would be TOO numerous to Pay for it all, and they WOULD SOON BE BANKRUPT. THAT IS WHY THE LAW WOULD NEVER account for ALL OF THEIR SINS. It was designed to DRIVE THEM TO MESSIAH.

Isaiah 1:11-14 (HCSB)
11 “What are all your sacrifices to Me?” asks the LORD. “I have had enough of burnt offerings and rams and the fat of well-fed cattle; I have no desire for the blood of bulls, lambs, or male goats.
12 When you come to appear before Me, who requires this from you— ⌊this⌋ trampling of My courts?
13 Stop bringing useless offerings. ⌊Your⌋ incense is detestable to Me. New Moons and Sabbaths, and the calling of solemn assemblies— I cannot stand iniquity with a festival.
14 I hate your New Moons and prescribed festivals. They have become a burden to Me; I am tired of putting up with ⌊them⌋.


YOU SEE PHARISEES THOUGHT WE CAN DO THAT, WHEN THE PRICE THE SHOULD PAY WAS MORE THAN TWO OR MORE LIFETIMES OF SACRIFICES. NOW WE GOT A NEW GENERATION OF PEOPLE WHO THINK WE CAN DO THAT.

HERE IS WHAT GOD REALLY WANTS.

Psalm 34:18 (HCSB)
18 The LORD is near the brokenhearted; He saves those crushed in spirit.

Psalm 51:13-17 (HCSB)
13 Then I will teach the rebellious Your ways, and sinners will return to You.
14 Save me from the guilt of bloodshed, God, the God of my salvation, and my tongue will sing of Your righteousness.
15 Lord, open my lips, and my mouth will declare Your praise.
16 You do not want a sacrifice, or I would give it; You are not pleased with a burnt offering.
17 The sacrifice pleasing to God is a broken spirit. God, You will not despise a broken and humbled heart.

Search the Psalms, and you will find plenty of Prayer for FORGIVENESS. Just do a search for Forgive, and you will pull up lots of verses like:

Psalm 79:9 (NIV)
9 Help us, O God our Savior, for the glory of your name; deliver us and forgive our sins for your name's sake.


Romans 8:3 (HCSB)
3 What the law could not do since it was limited by the flesh, God did. He condemned sin in the flesh by sending His own Son in flesh like ours under sin’s domain, and as a sin offering,

Romans 3:20 (HCSB)
20 For no one will be justified in His sight by the works of the law, because the knowledge of sin ⌊comes⌋ through the law.

Galatians 2:21 (HCSB)
21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died for nothing.

Righteousness could come through the law, but it was self righteousness by following the law. God’s righteousness through the faith of Christ was only made available after the cross.

 

[John146]

NO IT DID NOT. IT CAME THROUGH AGAPE LOVE to the LORD.

Romans 3:20 (HCSB)
20 For no one will be justified in His sight by the works of the law, because the knowledge of sin ⌊comes⌋ through the law.


What on EARTH does no one mean to YOU ? ? ?

James 2
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.