Does man have a libertarian free will?

This regeneration results in the gifts of faith and repentance leading to salvation.



1 John 5:1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him.

Philippians 1:29 29 For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake,

2 Peter 1:1 Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

Ephesians 2:7-9 . 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

The elect hear and respond to the words of Jesus, and their calling is effectual.

John 8:47 47 Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.”

Acts 13:48 48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed

1 Corinthians 1:21-24 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. 22 For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

The reprobate (non-elect) do not respond to the words of Jesus, and their calling is ineffectual.

John 10:24-27 24 So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.” 25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.

Acts 13:46-48 And Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly, saying, “It was necessary that the word of God be spoken first to you. Since you thrust it aside and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles. 47 For so the Lord has commanded us, saying, “‘I have made you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.’” 48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

The elect, who are called the children of God, are destined for eternal life and glory.

Romans 9:19-24 19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles.

The reprobate (non-elect), who are called the children of Satan, are destined to eternal punishment and wrath

Romans 9:19-24 19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

Jude 1:4 4 For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

1 John 3:8-10 8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

Here is my Scriptural support.

Let's just face it. You guys simply don't like the teaching. You can't handle a God who is sovereign in all things, including salvation.

And, there are people on this site whose agenda is to refute Reformed theology and to engage in spreading false propaganda about it.

I would suggest that it is YOU who need to go back and study the Scriptures.

And, by the way, I was a free willer for many years. I realize now that their view employs muddy thinking and is dishonoring to God. It proposes that God is incompetent and sets out to save people who will never be saved. It also denies fundamental truths such as the dead state of man prior to salvation, and doesn't give true glory to God.

I have already addressed those issues over and over though.

"If I be lifted up" ....this verse is talking about "all men" in terms of both Jews and Gentiles.

I suggest that you read John 12 carefully. First some Greeks come to see Jesus. He apparently does not talk to them. This comment follows this request by Greeks.

If you read John 6:44 in conjunction with this, it is teaching, in effect, that all who are drawn by the Father will be resurrected on the last day. If your view of "all men" is correct, then every single person will be resurrected on the last day, which is talking about receiving eternal life.

However, it is discussing "all men" in the context of both Jew and Gentile. It doesn't mean every single man.

And, before this, apparently salvation wasn't even available to Gentiles in general, although there were apparently a few people saved in the OT as a type. In the book of Acts, it is announced that God has opened the door of salvation to Gentiles (Acts 14:27).

Feel free to put me on ignore. I will be overjoyed

By the way, don't think I am ignorant of your attempts to indoctrinate others in liberal free-willer theology. Why do you have a problem with me presenting the other side?

By the way, unless someone would be misled by the claims that Reformed people don't read their Bible, the ones I know are FAR MORE DILIGENT about reading Scripture than the free willers I know. Most free willers I know don't even talk about the Bible much.

In fact, their church services are often going through a book of the Bible over months, line by line, in expository teaching. And, the focus is on Christ, not reading one's self into the Scriptures.

Compare that to the free-willer churches I attended...their services were topical coverage of a topic or random rambling off the top of the speaker's head.

So, these claims that Reformed people sit in some corner reading John Calvin are just retarded propaganda. The focus is on expository teaching. The pastor might refer to great preachers of the past occasionally to support his point, but the focus is Scripture itself. And, that is the way the people like it.

This is accompanied often by uplifting hymns with strong Scriptural content.

No jumping around, yelling, falling on the floor, pastors talking off the top of their head about random comments or eisegeting themselves into the text.

And, at home, all of my Reformed friends are involved in constant Bible reading. This is the strong focus of the Reformed community.

The focus is definitely NOT on philosophy. I have seen enough of the posts from one individual who is criticizing me to know that his focus is strongly related to philosophy and not to Scripture.

God is sovereign. He made the plan for salvation. He sent his only begotten Son to die for the sins of the world that whosoever believes in him and calls upon him shall be saved.

Your doctrine seeks to limit Jesus' atonement. So it is you who is putting a limit on God.

We know God is sovereign and we also know from reading scripture that it is not his will that any will perish, yet many have and still will. Not because God can't save everyone, no, not the case at all. God could save everyone, but he is the one who made the plan for salvation. He sent his Son to die for everyone, but we have to accept him. Now that is really just plain and simple. If anyone perish or dies lost, it's not God's fault. It's their own fault. He sent the means for salvation, and it's up to each person whether they will accept it or not.

I don't think your ignorant I just think your confused. Did I say I had a problem with others presenting their view? I just simply pointed out you post something related to Calvinism every few days and when no one hardly replied you jumped onto my old thread to fill your desire for debate. We already been down this road. I see your scriptures you post. They don't hurt my theology. Election is part of scripture. Just not how you interpret it. Theologically and philosophically to deny free will is comical. It is comical to watch you deny scriptures and then post super long posts to try and fumble through the illogical conclusions. I dont mind teaching someone new but we have already shared our thoughts. Our time could be spent helping or encouraging others on this site.

I have told you before this debate doesn't matter in the end. Either way wouldn't change reality or evangelism. Of course to me free will best explains reality but I suppose some just like their illusions.

Unless God regenerates an individual, he will choose to reject Him.

And, he only regenerates the elect.

I provided Scriptural proof that God has elected certain individuals since the foundation of the world, and their salvation is assured. You can reject these Scriptures, but they are very clear to me.

Additionally, there is a refusal to acknowledge the extensive damage that was done due to Adam's sin by free-willers. That would go a long way to clarifying the state that fallen man is in.

Ephesians 2:1-10 is one of the clearest statements in regards to this state.

Ephesians 2:1-10 1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
(ESV Strong's)

Whatt???? Faith is something given to the man, along with the whole package of salvation? That's gonna blow some free-willer brain cells.

Whatt???? The unsaved man is spiritually dead, and requires a spiritual resurrection? Again, that's gonna blow some free-willer brain cells.

Again, this is really all a matter of refusing to acknowledge what Scripture teaches concerning election, predestination, original sin, and the extensive damage that was caused by the Fall. Somehow you guys think it is within man's native ability to choose God. A bad tree produces bad fruit, and a good tree produces good fruit, according to Christ. It is the tree that is the problem. Change the tree and you get corresponding fruit, which is exactly what God needs to do.

Yet, the decisional regenerationist teaches that his choice brings about regeneration (the new birth). He doesn't even realize he can't make good choices in regards to pursuing God until the heart of stone is replaced with a heart of flesh. Instead, he thinks his decision brought about his regeneration. Somehow he dredged up faith and repentance out of his stony, hard heart, and that resulted in is regeneration, in his worldview.

Well, he likely wouldn't even acknowledge his rebellious heart to start with, so reasoning with free-willers about concepts like this is virtually impossible.

I'm not confused. Nor am I seeking to learn your theology. Your position is heavily dependent upon philosophy rather than Scripture.

Regarding free will, I have already indicated that my position is that man has "creaturely free will", and I have explained why I hold that position. Mankind's decisions are governed by his nature. A fallen man's decisions reflect a fallen nature, and a regenerate man's decisions reflect a new nature in union with Christ. Additionally, I believe in compatibilism, which teaches that man's decisions are not incompatible with God's sovereign decrees. However, God sovereignly decrees outcomes that are achieved. Period. End of sentence.

This position is firmly Scriptural, and is evidenced by three events in Scripture. One relates to Joseph being sold into slavery by his evil brothers, yet God caused this to occur in order to preserve Israel through a famine (Genesis 50). Another relates to Assyria being used by God to punish Israel, yet God punishes Assyria for their gleeful, excessive punishment (Isaiah 10-11). Another relates to evil men crucifying Christ, yet this was foreordained from the foundation of the world (Acts 2:23).

https://www.gotquestions.org/compatibilism.html

Your view is libertarian free will, which claims that man's decisions cannot in any way be explained by divine intervention. This is a philosophical position which is not biblical. I don't think you can explain the many things that God decreed using your libertarian free will model.

For example, the Exodus is typological of man's salvation. God orchestrated all kinds of events in the Exodus account in order to mirror the salvation of man. How did this happen in your libertarian free will model?

https://www.gotquestions.org/libertarian-free-will.html


It wouldn't totally surprise me if you are an open theist or into process theology, either, especially since free willer theology in general cannot really be consistent without holding such heterodox beliefs. Most free willers are not consistent thinkers though.

By the way, the cult I belonged to became liberal open theists once they left the teachings of the founder. And, because they absolutely abhorred election and predestination, they started studying materials from guys like Clark Pinnock and Greg Boyd. Both are rank open theists who are into process theology. Most knowledgeble evangelicals would realize that these beliefs are heterodox at best, because believing them requires a sub-Christian view of God that is anthropomorphic.

Regarding why I post on other threads, if I run across something that provides worthwhile arguments concerning a topic, I post those materials on threads that deal with the topic. I am not really looking for a discussion with the original poster. I am simply providing more information from my perspective on this topic, in case someone runs across the topic and wants to study it deeper. I wouldn't advise studying much on this forum anyways, as I would encourage such a person to read books by solid, educated people. However, adding such materials to the thread might give them further insight into the Reformed position.

And, I am most certainly not your ministry partner. The church I was attending prior to my current one was part of the Evangelical Free Church of America. Their philosophy was much more ecumenical than me. The pastor spoke positively of men that I would consider to be problematic, such as Rick Warren, Mark Driscoll, and James MacDonald. I was involved in jail ministry with Christians from other theological camps, and found, in essence, that they were undermining any real effect I could have had in jail ministry. For example, I donated a lot of ESV Bibles and the KJV Only chaplain made sure they couldn't be given to men who wanted a Bible. Additionally, as a charismatic, he taught silly things like claiming that men who were caught up in sin needed to be exorcised of generational curses and things like that. He claimed that men needed to be liberated from the soul bonds that they had with women they had sex with, or they could not escape the sin relating to them.

It is very hard to be ecumenical, because those who are "ministry partners" will undermine your effort at every opportunity. And, if a prisoner asked my opinion on something whacky that some other chaplain aid spoke about, am I to stay silent and assent to their whacky teachings? I don't think so.

So, I am not a "ministry partner" with those outside of my theological group. I could operate with either Reformed Baptists or conservative Presbyterians with no issues, but I doubt if I will ever be involved in parachurch ministries that are run by free-willers again, other than something like Compassion International or Operation Christmas Child where teaching is not involved and the involvement is very superficial.

This idea of being ministry partners with people from other major theological camps might sound spiritual to postmodernists but I'm not one of them. Been there, done that, bought the T shirt.

By the way, "Reformed" is not a denomination; it is a theological belief system that is shared between various denominations, associations and individuals. I believe on another post, you made some comment about denominations. In the last few churches I've been involved with, neither were attached to a denomination. And, the previous one was very ecumenical as I stated.

I agree that someone has unclear thinking and illusions, but we both disagree on who this person is

Additionally, I do not think very highly of Christians who are wrapped up in philosophical assertions rather than biblical assertions. It is one matter to employ some level of critical thinking and to recognize legitimate logical fallacies, but philosophy can be used to undermine the authority of Scripture as well. If Scripture teaches something, it is the authority regardless of man's scruples concerning it.

I am also not a fan of redefining words and concepts, and that is what you are trying to do in terms of election. No sound theologian would use a phrase like pre-election because it makes no sense. The doctrine of election within the context of Christianity implies that God has already decreed the person's salvation from the foundation of the world. I have provided Scriptures in this regard.

I will again point out that free-willers cannot exegete 1 Corinthians 1:26ff in light of their claims.

Not hardly, sir. It is amazing how you guys look at the scriptures and still don't get the message.

The Gospel or the good news. Jesus came and died on a tree so that anyone who would believe and call upon him would be saved. How is that so hard to grasp? If God had already chosen to save only some and chose others who could not be saved no matter what, then why would he send his only begotten Son to die like that? Wouldn't have been any need in all that, if he was just going to not give anyone a chance either way.

God sends out a call or the drawing convicting spirit to draw everyone to his Son. Just like Jesus said "if I be lifted up, I will draw all men to me. During this conviction, men are enabled to make a choice. You can't get saved until God calls you and you accept his Son.

However, you can resist this conviction. Jesus said he would draw all men unto him, and we know not all are or will be saved. Also it's not God's will that any should perish but that all would come to repentance, but we know not all will be saved. Who's fault do you think that is? It's definitely not Jesus' so apparently some men chose to resist him. Those that resist will be lost and those that accept will be saved. God made the way and Jesus paid the cost on dark mount Calvary....He gives us all a chance, though and those that resist will have no excuse come judgement day.

As in all things God must do the first work.

The Gospel, God's law is the good news.

Remember men are born with "no faith" that comes by hearing God. Again not little faith "none".

Because of that no man can seek after God having no understanding . A impossibility of their own volition there is nothing to light the path .

As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. Roman 3:10-11

Romans 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

The phrase ; "As many" a key that is used throughout the bible to help us differentiate between "all" that are given the power to hear and those who do not hear .One that leads to life the other powerless confirming one is dead in the trespasses and sin. Death according to the letter of the law.

Matthew 20:28Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

For many not everyone. the other all. All were given the vision or power to understanding (not of there own self0 They have no faith power to believe . not little none. "

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

No willful power coming from them as if God was served by them .

This is a waste of time but let me enlighten you once more before I get bored with your mediocre illogical attempts to deny something you yourself once believed in. Funny how you once had free will but now you dont after already being saved. And you have to understand I speak to so many people I dont remember what you believe and it is ironic how even with those who deny free will still differ in interpretation to your conclusion.

I have posted so many scriptures throughout our talks but do you ever address them? No. Something as obvious as John 3:16 as a invitation all who will believe would be hard to explain away. All isnt a restrictive word. Believe isnt a word needed if God forces belief. So no I can defend with scripture and philosophy dealing with logic is also God created. Logically you dont call people to choose or believe if it wasn't up to them. See how stupid that sounds.

Yah I like that lol. A nice spin that others dont add. Usually it is all or nothing. I get it though. You see the free will evidence but still working it into your theology. You will iron it out one day.

Can God not bring about his will even within free will? I think he can. Remember Jonah ran away but God didn't robotically take control over him. God did some mighty convincing and Jonah still hated that God was forgiving the gentiles.

Not exactly. I believe in divine relationally. Spiritual persuasion like the word pisteuo. Which you still cant address. Of course God acts within the world. He is a theistic God. Doesn't mean He isnt wise or powerful enough to act with free will especially since he has all the time in eternity and all foreseeable knowledge. You limit God's ability in my opinion. All God had to do was find a willing vessel to do his will. It isnt hard to explain. You see in scripture decades fly by before you get a willing vessel that God foresaw and knew would bring about His will.

Shoot I feel like I am the only one using my brain. Call it pride but usually I try not roll in the mud for too long because this doesn't produce fruit. But maybe you will understand my position better. Probably not and I will end up having to be the bigger person, bite my tongue and go back to evangelizing, encouraging, or helping others through their doubts.

Probably still need some healing from such a start. Cults twist truth.

Same goes for your posts. Both ways. But just a reminder most of Jesus's Apostles was uneducated men including many Prophets. Didn't you recommend 1 Corinthians 26-27? Your words are just that. Words. I have had my spiritual calling and the fruit is evident. I take great time and care to teach truth. My calling is higher than the 1 or 2 who mocks out of the 100s who are enlightened, encouraged, and equipped by what the Spirit leads me to.

Hey I understand you had a rough start. And now that has scarred you. But honestly many of your issues are majoring in the minors. I'm not a KJV user but who cares as long as they get a Bible? Free will or no free will. Who cares we are still called to evangelize to people everywhere. I wasn't going to type this much because this to me is a minor thing. But you seem to grown attached to my posts lol. It is actually sad. So much division over pride. I have lowered my issues I take a stand on. Usually soul salvation or core Christian doctrine issues. If it isnt that I let share my belief and move on. I dont separate though.

Of course if someone is radical then yes I seperate but most often people divide over the dumbest stuff. You may not be my ministry partner but you are mine. Even if one of is wrong I dont see our core beliefs preventing anyone from salvation.

Yah but they still hold a statement of belief and rules how they govern their church. It is how all denominations started.

Yes through Christ. That was predestined. Philosophical use is simply how to think. Reason and logic. This involves everything we do. For example God cannot contradict himself. Which he does if you cannot choose, believe, abide, or return. You are literally using philosophy to even think, debate or understand complex subjects. Above all else God created it. Logical fallacies shouldn't be evident within scripture.

1 Corinthians 1:26 English Standard Version (ESV)
26 For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth.

Yes what of it? I was called does that restrict free will? When you call someone, do they always listen? Or a calling as in command is that a by force or telling you the standards in how God is choosing to act within the world. To consider how God is moving, is to seek comfort in knowing the will of God.

I had to omit most of your post due to space constrains, so I encourage those who want to understand my comments to refer back to it.

You didn't quote the entire section of Scripture that I mentioned (1 Cor 1:26ff). You only qouted the first verse, which didn't really make my point.

Do you know what "ff" means? It means all verses forward from that point.

And in these verses, the phrase "God chose" is repeated three times. I don't know if you are aware of this, but when the authors of Scripture repeat things, they do it because they are emphasizing something important.

Additionally, the section says that God did this for specific purposes. He chose weak individuals in a worldly sense, to make his strength more visible. So, he chose specific individuals, not just anyone, in order to make his strength show more clearly through them. And, he mentions salvation terminology in regards to this. He was not talking about mission alone, as the free-willer claims on so many other Scriptures teaching election.

Regarding your assessment of my exegetical and reasoning ability, it really isn't important for me to defend myself to you in this regard.

I think it's pretty funny that you claim God exerted simple persuasion upon Jonah. Do you really think that there's any chance Jonah or any other man can escape God's will for them? LOL.

What about Paul? He was knocked off his horse on the road to Damascus and told what he WILL do. There was no gentle persuasion here like your free willer god supposedly gently exerts, like some crying little old man who is helplessly watching without being able to stop all these sinners going to eternal punishment.

Romans 9 is clearly teaching that no one can resist God's will, and that some individuals are already destined for glory, and others are destined to destruction.

And, it is God who shapes those individuals for these fates.

By the way, your argument would be very much like what the charges Paul anticipates here:


Romans 9:1-24 1 I am speaking the truth in Christ—I am not lying; my conscience bears me witness in the Holy Spirit— 2 that I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, my kinsmen according to the flesh. 4 They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises. 5 To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.

6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, 7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” 8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. 9 For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.” 10 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?
(ESV Strong's)

Now, whether free-willers like it or not, it is what Scripture teaches. No one resists God's will for them, and there are individuals God is shaping for glory, and there are individuals who are not being shaped for glory.

Additionally, God will show his wrath for those individuals as a display of his power. So, even in their destruction, his attributes will be more clearly displayed. He will be showing that he hates sin (in reality, he even hates the unrepentant sinner but that's a topic most free willers will simply deny).

Regarding this remark:

Can God not bring about his will even within free will? I think he can. Remember Jonah ran away but God didn't robotically take control over him. God did some mighty convincing and Jonah still hated that God was forgiving the gentiles

You are describing compatibilism, which I explained to you as my position!!! What the heck is your problem? I am not sure you are even reading what I have said, other than some cursory glance.

Compatibilism is the normal Reformed position.

Regarding your understanding of biblical faith, the issue is that you are claiming an unsaved man has biblical faith already. As I have indicated, God gives the believer his faith through regeneration. There is an inferior level of faith which is not Spirit-wrought but it will not endure. You see this described in John 6. One group of followers does not persevere because their faith is inferior and not Spirit-wrought. The other group of followers has been given supernatural faith, and they persevere.

The difference is regeneration.

As for the believer, though, it is obvious these gifts associated with salvation were PROVIDED and were not generated by the person himself.

Ephesians 2:1-10 1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. (ESV Strong's)

Regarding the KJV bible issue at the jail, the problem is that many of these men have learning deficiencies. Additionally, they were not given dictionaries. Actually, I gave some of them dictionaries from my own funds in order to help them out in that way later, but the KJV only guys certainly didn't step forward and provide them very often.

By the way, you can continue criticizing my reasoning ability. I simply think you are trying to manufacture a belief system that is consistent with your own philosophical presuppositions about God that are not biblical.

And, I made it clear that I do not consider critical reasoning skills, inductive and deductive reasoning, and examination of fallacies to be "philosophy". The real issue is foundation. Is one's foundation Scripture, or is one's foundation some humanistic presuppositions that are unbiblical, such as libertarian free will?

You have made it clear from the past that you hold the position of libertarian free will. This is an unbiblical presuppositon. I think you know it is unbiblical, so you try to mollify your position by your "strong persuasion" qualifiers lol.

God does more than use "strong persuasion". He actually changes the nature of those that he chooses. And, Scripture is clear on this.

the elect chosen before the foundation of the world, and you once fell away in free willer status huh.

Simple question.

Is election a biblical doctrine?

Does God choose individuals for salvation?

That's the main problem you face.

The reality is that God has elected particular individuals to salvation.

Ignoring this is unbiblical. Accepting it destroys the theology of free-willers whether they will admit it or not.

The NT teaches over and over again that God elects individuals to salvation. The free-willer attempts to deconstruct this teaching by claiming God elected a class of individuals, or only elected Christ, and when you are included in Christ, you are part of the elect.

However, their deconstruction is refuted by Scripture such as this:

1 Corinthians 1:26-31 26 For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; 28 God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, 29 so that no human being might boast in the presence of God. 30 And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, 31 so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in (ESV Strong's)

Concerning any claims that the Gospel or Christ's sacrifice is unnecessary because of election, this is a ridiculous claim. God ordains both means and ends..

The atonement was necessary as it shows that God's mercy and love are not compromises to his holiness. He punished sin on the Cross. Jesus paid the penalty for the sins of the elect, demonstrating God's justice. He also displayed God's mercy and love through his sacrifice.

The gospel is one of the means that God has decreed. He has decreed the end, and he decreed the means to reach this end.

However, I want to get back to this one question: does God elect the salvation of particular individuals, and are these individuals chosen from the foundation of the earth? I provided Scripture above to support my position, which is an absolute "yes". The false belief of corporate election is not biblical.

I have no clue what you are saying. I suspect you don't understand something correctly.

I didn't "fall away" from salvation whether I was a free willer at one time or not. I don't claim that understanding Reformed theology is necessary for salvation.