Not By Works

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
9,033
4,456
113
From a purely fleshly point of view, I'd have to think about it.
From a spiritual point of view we are getting a glimpse of how Jesus would suffer the wrath of God 'because of us'.
Think about it.

Jesus suffered the wrath of God for our sin on the cross.

I cannot see how Moses was not allowed to enter the promised land because of the sin of the people.
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,402
113
I have a question for you that I'm not sure what is the case...

When Moses received the law with the 10 commandments on there, was Joshua also with him at that point or was it just Moses alone?
Moses was on top the burning mountain 40 days alone receiving the law...Joshua would have been down with the rest of the people waiting on Moses to come down....Exodus 34:28
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
9,033
4,456
113
Moses was on top the burning mountain 40 days alone receiving the law...Joshua would have been down with the rest of the people waiting on Moses to come down....Exodus 34:28
Caleb is part of the scenario?
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,402
113
Think about it.

Jesus suffered the wrath of God for our sin on the cross.

I cannot see how Moses was not allowed to enter the promised land because of the sin of the people.
Amen Bill....Moses represented the LAW....ONE SIN under the LAW DEEMS guilt...that is the point...HE SINNED under the LAW by striking the rock twice instead of speaking to it....he was allowed to take the people UP TO THE POINT OF VIEWING THE PROMISE LAND just like the LAW AS A SCHOOL MASTER does/DID for us, but it can NEVER DELIVER...hence the NEED FOR A SAVIOR <-JOSHUA!
 
Feb 28, 2016
11,311
2,974
113
EX. 24:13.
And Moses rose up, and his minister Joshua: and Moses went up into the mount of God.
14.
And he said unto the elders, Tarry you here for us, until (((we))) come again unto you:
and, behold, Aaron and Hur are with you: if any man have any matters to do, let him come unto them.

a really good study for those who desire to learn,..
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,402
113
Caleb is part of the scenario?
Joshua and Caleb were the only two over the age of 20 spared in the wilderness travels....they alone believed GOD and believed they could take the LAND while the other 10 spies LIED IN UNBELIEF and said they could not do it....and the tragic truth...you can be one day late and a proverbial dolla short.....God judged and said I will kill everyone over the age of 20 for unbelief and the people said NO WE CAN DO IT.....too late by a day!!!.....Look....these people were under a conditional covenant of law which required adherance to receive the BLESSING....they failed and paid the price UNDER THE LAW....however....they had exercised faith, were delivered, led, fed, given a form of worship, had the presence of God day and night (pillar of fire/smoke) and God NEVER FORSOOK THEM OR LEFT THEM....that is the point of Hebrews....SAVED IS ALWAYS SAVED....YET THERE IS A PLACE OF REST TO BE FOUND IN THIS LIFE BY OBEDIENCE.....it can be MISSED BY SIN AND UNBELIEF yet GOD WILL NOT FORSAKE OR YANK the deliverance that has been given by faith!!
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,402
113
EX. 24:13.
And Moses rose up, and his minister Joshua: and Moses went up into the mount of God.
14.
And he said unto the elders, Tarry you here for us, until (((we))) come again unto you:
and, behold, Aaron and Hur are with you: if any man have any matters to do, let him come unto them.

a really good study for those who desire to learn,..
Yep good study

"Moses alone, however, shall come near to the LORD, but they shall not come near, nor shall the people come up with him."
 

Lightskin

Well-known member
Aug 16, 2019
3,165
3,665
113
You have to stop automatically thinking of one's own self righteousness when someone talks about the Christian walking in righteousness.
The Christian walks in the righteousness that God has enabled him to walk in.
That is what true spirituality is and what shows you to be really saved.
But just denying self-righteousness in a Freegrace doctrine is not true spirituality.
It's the walk that counts, not the talk.
I think of self righteousness when I’m dealing with self righteous people. You know the saying, when in Rome...
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,995
4,615
113
I have a question for you that I'm not sure what is the case...

When Moses received the law with the 10 commandments on there, was Joshua also with him at that point or was it just Moses alone?

Exodus 19:24-25 (ESV)
24 And the LORD said to him,Go down, and come up bringing Aaron with you. But do not let the priests and the people break through to come up to the LORD, lest he break out against them.”
25 So Moses went down to the people and told them.

Exodus 20:1-26 (ESV)
1 And God spoke all these words, saying,
2 “I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.
3 “You shall have no other gods before me.
4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5 You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me,
6 but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.
7 “You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not hold him guiltless who takes his name in vain.
8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days you shall labor, and do all your work,
10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates.
11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.
12 “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long in the land that the LORD your God is giving you.
13 “You shall not murder.
14 “You shall not commit adultery.
15 “You shall not steal.
16 “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
17 “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his male servant, or his female servant, or his ox, or his donkey, or anything that is your neighbor’s.”
18 Now when all the people saw the thunder and the flashes of lightning and the sound of the trumpet and the mountain smoking, the people were afraid and trembled, and they stood far off
19 and said to Moses, “You speak to us, and we will listen; but do not let God speak to us, lest we die.”
20 Moses said to the people, “Do not fear, for God has come to test you, that the fear of him may be before you, that you may not sin.”
21 The people stood far off, while Moses drew near to the thick darkness where God was.
22 And the LORD said to Moses, “Thus you shall say to the people of Israel: ‘You have seen for yourselves that I have talked with you from heaven.
23 You shall not make gods of silver to be with me, nor shall you make for yourselves gods of gold.
24 An altar of earth you shall make for me and sacrifice on it your burnt offerings and your peace offerings, your sheep and your oxen. In every place where I cause my name to be remembered I will come to you and bless you.
25 If you make me an altar of stone, you shall not build it of hewn stones, for if you wield your tool on it you profane it.
26 And you shall not go up by steps to my altar, that your nakedness be not exposed on it.’


No Joshua was not invited by GOD. Aaron, may have stopped just before they got to the top of the Mountain.

Found an answer to a slightly embarrassing question. What did men wear under the Robes?

1588805288787.jpeg

Apparently NOTHING, according to verse 26.
 
Nov 16, 2019
3,441
860
113
I cannot see how Moses was not allowed to enter the promised land because of the sin of the people.
Whether we understand how or not, the fact remains that Moses really did say God was angry with him because of the people:

"21The Lord was angry with me because of you..." - Deuteronomy 4:21

He's saying I wouldn't have gotten cut off if it wasn't for the rebellion of you people.
And that is true for Jesus too.
 
Nov 16, 2019
3,441
860
113
Amen Bill....Moses represented the LAW....ONE SIN under the LAW DEEMS guilt...that is the point...HE SINNED under the LAW by striking the rock twice instead of speaking to it....he was allowed to take the people UP TO THE POINT OF VIEWING THE PROMISE LAND just like the LAW AS A SCHOOL MASTER does/DID for us, but it can NEVER DELIVER...hence the NEED FOR A SAVIOR <-JOSHUA!
Good stuff.
But Moses, as imperfect as he was, is a picture of Jesus, too.
Even the rock that was struck is a picture of Jesus.
 
Nov 16, 2019
3,441
860
113
Us "people" aren't confused, you are.

(Num 20:12 And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron, Because ye believed me not, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this congregation into the land which I have given them.)
How does this even remotely mean Moses and Aaron lost faith in the promise?
This is like when a Christian believes in God's promise of salvation but is faithless in regard to things like not lying on your taxes, not viewing porn, being kind, being patient, loving, etc.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
23,754
8,606
113
Amen Bill....Moses represented the LAW....ONE SIN under the LAW DEEMS guilt...that is the point...HE SINNED under the LAW by striking the rock twice instead of speaking to it....he was allowed to take the people UP TO THE POINT OF VIEWING THE PROMISE LAND just like the LAW AS A SCHOOL MASTER does/DID for us, but it can NEVER DELIVER...hence the NEED FOR A SAVIOR <-JOSHUA!
So if you may never have heard of this theory yet, So here it goes....

God told Moses to speak to the rock the second time around, because Israel will speak to and ask Jesus to return the second time around!

One of the reasons that God was angry with Moses was because he messed up the prophetical type that God was undertaking to record.

Smite the Rock and water (Holy Spirit) gushes out.
Speak to the Rock and water (Holy spirit) gushes out.
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
One of the reasons that God was angry with Moses was because he messed up the prophetical type that God was undertaking to record.
This seems highly speculative to me?

I do not think anyone messes up God's plans... but I will be reading along...
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
23,754
8,606
113
Exodus 19:24-25 (ESV)
24 And the LORD said to him,Go down, and come up bringing Aaron with you. But do not let the priests and the people break through to come up to the LORD, lest he break out against them.”
25 So Moses went down to the people and told them.

Exodus 20:1-26 (ESV)
1 And God spoke all these words, saying,
2 “I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.
3 “You shall have no other gods before me.
4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5 You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me,
6 but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.
7 “You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not hold him guiltless who takes his name in vain.
8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days you shall labor, and do all your work,
10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates.
11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.
12 “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long in the land that the LORD your God is giving you.
13 “You shall not murder.
14 “You shall not commit adultery.
15 “You shall not steal.
16 “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
17 “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his male servant, or his female servant, or his ox, or his donkey, or anything that is your neighbor’s.”
18 Now when all the people saw the thunder and the flashes of lightning and the sound of the trumpet and the mountain smoking, the people were afraid and trembled, and they stood far off
19 and said to Moses, “You speak to us, and we will listen; but do not let God speak to us, lest we die.”
20 Moses said to the people, “Do not fear, for God has come to test you, that the fear of him may be before you, that you may not sin.”
21 The people stood far off, while Moses drew near to the thick darkness where God was.
22 And the LORD said to Moses, “Thus you shall say to the people of Israel: ‘You have seen for yourselves that I have talked with you from heaven.
23 You shall not make gods of silver to be with me, nor shall you make for yourselves gods of gold.
24 An altar of earth you shall make for me and sacrifice on it your burnt offerings and your peace offerings, your sheep and your oxen. In every place where I cause my name to be remembered I will come to you and bless you.
25 If you make me an altar of stone, you shall not build it of hewn stones, for if you wield your tool on it you profane it.
26 And you shall not go up by steps to my altar, that your nakedness be not exposed on it.’


No Joshua was not invited by GOD. Aaron, may have stopped just before they got to the top of the Mountain.

Found an answer to a slightly embarrassing question. What did men wear under the Robes?

View attachment 216126

Apparently NOTHING, according to verse 26.
Moses ascended to mount Sinai eight times!
Moses had company three different times....interesting reading.

https://www.gotquestions.org/Moses-on-Mount-Sinai.html
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,402
113
This seems highly speculative to me?

I do not think anyone messes up God's plans... but I will be reading along...
Unless my memory fails me....I am fairly confident that God told Moses to speak to the rock....and out of anger he struck it twice.......
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
23,754
8,606
113
This seems highly speculative to me?

I do not think anyone messes up God's plans... but I will be reading along...
Yep. Highly speculative. But a very interesting theory. I take no stand one way or another.
Heard that from Chuck Missler BTW. God rest his soul. I credit Chuck Missler with leading me to Christ. He was my first and best teacher.
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,402
113
Take the rod, and assemble the congregation, you, and Aaron your brother, and speak to the rock before their eyes, that it give forth its water; and you shall bring forth to them water out of the rock; so you shall give the congregation and their livestock drink. And Moses took the rod from before the LORD, as he commanded him. Then Moses and Aaron gathered the assembly together before the rock, and he said to them, “Hear now, you rebels: shall we bring water for you out of this rock?” And Moses lifted up his hand and struck the rock with his staff twice, and water came out abundantly, and the congregation drank, and their livestock