The absurdity and heresy of Preterism
- Thread starter Nehemiah6
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yes, I hear what you're saying and you may well have the right of it.
I agree that for irenaeus, "universally" meant the area he was familiar with.
the church was founded at Rome? do you agree with that?
most people say the church was founded at Pentecost in the upper room.
the church is organized at Rome.
again, agree?
if so, still true today?
if true back then but not today when did it stop, in your view?
was irenaeus thinking of Bishops who were appointed? if so, when did that process stop?
one of the things I'm interested in is whether these changes were made at a particular point in time, or a kind of gradual shift as God led the church from one phase to another.
I agree that for irenaeus, "universally" meant the area he was familiar with.
the church was founded at Rome? do you agree with that?
most people say the church was founded at Pentecost in the upper room.
the church is organized at Rome.
again, agree?
if so, still true today?
if true back then but not today when did it stop, in your view?
was irenaeus thinking of Bishops who were appointed? if so, when did that process stop?
one of the things I'm interested in is whether these changes were made at a particular point in time, or a kind of gradual shift as God led the church from one phase to another.
Ahwatukee here is the plain reading of the millennium.
The number 1000 represents the time when Jesus Christ reigns over his ONE AND ONLY kingdom on this earth. This is the kingdom that is NOT OF THIS WORLD, the kingdom that comes WITHOUT OBSERVANCE.
Just to reiterate, there is ONLY ONE KINGDOM that Jesus will ever rule over on this planet. There is no kingdom of heaven for the Jews and then another kingdom for the Christians, there is ONLY ONE KINGDOM.
Now let's look at the "Thousand" verses.
(Psa 50:10) For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills.
The thousand hills are entities that are in the earthly kingdom that comes WITHOUT OBSERVANCE.
(Psa 90:4) For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.
The thousand years are DAYS that are in the earthly kingdom that comes WITHOUT OBSERVANCE. The number of days of this kingdom IS NOT 1000 years. 1000 years denotes that these are 24 hour DAYS that fall within the kingdom that comes WITHOUT OBSERVANCE.
(Rev 20:2) And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
The thousand years denotes the 24 hour DAYS that fall within the earthly kingdom that comes WITHOUT OBSERVANCE, in which Satan will be bound.
(Rev 20:3) And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
At the end of the thousand years of the earthly kingdom that comes WITHOUT OBSERVANCE, Satan will be loosed.
(Rev 20:4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
The thousand years denotes the EXACT TIME when those that lost their lives in Christ WERE RAISED FROM THE DEAD to reign with him in the earthly kingdom that comes WITHOUT OBSERVANCE. The kingdom that came when Christ ROSE FROM THE DEAD.
(Rev 20:5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
The end of the thousand years denotes the EXACT TIME when THE REST of those that will die in Christ will be raised AT THE END OF the kingdom that comes WITHOUT OBSERVANCE.
The kingdom that comes WITHOUT OBSERVANCE ENDS when the believer is translated from the earthly kingdom that comes without observance into the HEAVENLY KINGDOM that comes WITH OBSERVANCE.
Those two resurrections are the FIRST RESURRECTION.
The number 1000 represents the time when Jesus Christ reigns over his ONE AND ONLY kingdom on this earth. This is the kingdom that is NOT OF THIS WORLD, the kingdom that comes WITHOUT OBSERVANCE.
Just to reiterate, there is ONLY ONE KINGDOM that Jesus will ever rule over on this planet. There is no kingdom of heaven for the Jews and then another kingdom for the Christians, there is ONLY ONE KINGDOM.
Now let's look at the "Thousand" verses.
(Psa 50:10) For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills.
The thousand hills are entities that are in the earthly kingdom that comes WITHOUT OBSERVANCE.
(Psa 90:4) For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.
The thousand years are DAYS that are in the earthly kingdom that comes WITHOUT OBSERVANCE. The number of days of this kingdom IS NOT 1000 years. 1000 years denotes that these are 24 hour DAYS that fall within the kingdom that comes WITHOUT OBSERVANCE.
(Rev 20:2) And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
The thousand years denotes the 24 hour DAYS that fall within the earthly kingdom that comes WITHOUT OBSERVANCE, in which Satan will be bound.
(Rev 20:3) And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
At the end of the thousand years of the earthly kingdom that comes WITHOUT OBSERVANCE, Satan will be loosed.
(Rev 20:4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
The thousand years denotes the EXACT TIME when those that lost their lives in Christ WERE RAISED FROM THE DEAD to reign with him in the earthly kingdom that comes WITHOUT OBSERVANCE. The kingdom that came when Christ ROSE FROM THE DEAD.
(Rev 20:5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
The end of the thousand years denotes the EXACT TIME when THE REST of those that will die in Christ will be raised AT THE END OF the kingdom that comes WITHOUT OBSERVANCE.
The kingdom that comes WITHOUT OBSERVANCE ENDS when the believer is translated from the earthly kingdom that comes without observance into the HEAVENLY KINGDOM that comes WITH OBSERVANCE.
Those two resurrections are the FIRST RESURRECTION.
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Exactly! Joel tells us that bride comes out of her closet.... she was hidden in the Old Testament, most people didn't and still don't know that Christ was in THE CHURCH in the wilderness. She came out of her closet when the bridegroom (Christ) left his chamber. And I'm assuming that he chamber means the tomb. In other words, the bride came out of her closet and was made publicly visible when Christ, the bridegroom, rose from the dead.
(Joe 2:16) Gather the people, sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts: let the bridegroom go forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her closet.
(Joe 2:16) Gather the people, sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts: let the bridegroom go forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her closet.
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The sacrificial system was put in place so the people's sins could be forgiven. If a Jew died in his sin, they were cut off from God for eternity. I can post many, many more if needed. Sins could be forgiven under the law, but not washed away.
Leviticus 4:20
And he shall do with the bullock as he did with the bullock for a sin offering, so shall he do with this: and the priest shall make an atonement for them, and it shall be forgiven them.
Leviticus 4:26
And he shall burn all his fat upon the altar, as the fat of the sacrifice of peace offerings: and the priest shall make an atonement for him as concerning his sin, and it shall be forgiven him.
Leviticus 4:31
And he shall take away all the fat thereof, as the fat is taken away from off the sacrifice of peace offerings; and the priest shall burn it upon the altar for a sweet savour unto the Lord; and the priest shall make an atonement for him, and it shall be forgiven him.
Leviticus 4:35
And he shall take away all the fat thereof, as the fat of the lamb is taken away from the sacrifice of the peace offerings; and the priest shall burn them upon the altar, according to the offerings made by fire unto the Lord: and the priest shall make an atonement for his sin that he hath committed, and it shall be forgiven him.
Leviticus 5:10
And he shall offer the second for a burnt offering, according to the manner: and the priest shall make an atonement for him for his sin which he hath sinned, and it shall be forgiven him.
Leviticus 5:13
And the priest shall make an atonement for him as touching his sin that he hath sinned in one of these, and it shall be forgiven him: and the remnant shall be the priest's, as a meat offering.
Leviticus 5:16
And he shall make amends for the harm that he hath done in the holy thing, and shall add the fifth part thereto, and give it unto the priest: and the priest shall make an atonement for him with the ram of the trespass offering, and it shall be forgiven him.
Leviticus 5:18
And he shall bring a ram without blemish out of the flock, with thy estimation, for a trespass offering, unto the priest: and the priest shall make an atonement for him concerning his ignorance wherein he erred and wist it not, and it shall be forgiven him.
Leviticus 6:7
And the priest shall make an atonement for him before the Lord: and it shall be forgiven him for any thing of all that he hath done in trespassing therein.
Leviticus 19:22
And the priest shall make an atonement for him with the ram of the trespass offering before the Lord for his sin which he hath done: and the sin which he hath done shall be forgiven him.
Leviticus 4:20
And he shall do with the bullock as he did with the bullock for a sin offering, so shall he do with this: and the priest shall make an atonement for them, and it shall be forgiven them.
Leviticus 4:26
And he shall burn all his fat upon the altar, as the fat of the sacrifice of peace offerings: and the priest shall make an atonement for him as concerning his sin, and it shall be forgiven him.
Leviticus 4:31
And he shall take away all the fat thereof, as the fat is taken away from off the sacrifice of peace offerings; and the priest shall burn it upon the altar for a sweet savour unto the Lord; and the priest shall make an atonement for him, and it shall be forgiven him.
Leviticus 4:35
And he shall take away all the fat thereof, as the fat of the lamb is taken away from the sacrifice of the peace offerings; and the priest shall burn them upon the altar, according to the offerings made by fire unto the Lord: and the priest shall make an atonement for his sin that he hath committed, and it shall be forgiven him.
Leviticus 5:10
And he shall offer the second for a burnt offering, according to the manner: and the priest shall make an atonement for him for his sin which he hath sinned, and it shall be forgiven him.
Leviticus 5:13
And the priest shall make an atonement for him as touching his sin that he hath sinned in one of these, and it shall be forgiven him: and the remnant shall be the priest's, as a meat offering.
Leviticus 5:16
And he shall make amends for the harm that he hath done in the holy thing, and shall add the fifth part thereto, and give it unto the priest: and the priest shall make an atonement for him with the ram of the trespass offering, and it shall be forgiven him.
Leviticus 5:18
And he shall bring a ram without blemish out of the flock, with thy estimation, for a trespass offering, unto the priest: and the priest shall make an atonement for him concerning his ignorance wherein he erred and wist it not, and it shall be forgiven him.
Leviticus 6:7
And the priest shall make an atonement for him before the Lord: and it shall be forgiven him for any thing of all that he hath done in trespassing therein.
Leviticus 19:22
And the priest shall make an atonement for him with the ram of the trespass offering before the Lord for his sin which he hath done: and the sin which he hath done shall be forgiven him.
Their sins were forgiven, but not cleared. Sins were forgiven, but not washed away. If they did not offer sacrifices for their trespasses, they were cut off from God. The best these sacrifices could do is land them up in Abraham's bosom upon death.
Exodus 34
4 And he hewed two tables of stone like unto the first; and Moses rose up early in the morning, and went up unto mount Sinai, as the Lord had commanded him, and took in his hand the two tables of stone.
5 And the Lord descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the Lord.
6 And the Lord passed by before him, and proclaimed, The Lord, The Lord God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,
7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.
Exodus 34
4 And he hewed two tables of stone like unto the first; and Moses rose up early in the morning, and went up unto mount Sinai, as the Lord had commanded him, and took in his hand the two tables of stone.
5 And the Lord descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the Lord.
6 And the Lord passed by before him, and proclaimed, The Lord, The Lord God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,
7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.
They were made right with God, but it was self righteousness and not God's righteousness. That's what the law provided until the cross. Here's an example:
Luke
5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
How were they righteous before God? By walking blameless in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord.
Luke
5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
How were they righteous before God? By walking blameless in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord.