Not By Works

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EleventhHour

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Sackcloth-N-Ashes said:
The point is dead ppl, no matter how many times they hear the gospel, unless God moves unilaterally to give them life, they can never truly hear it and be saved.
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New King James Version
So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Romans 10:17


It does not state faith comes by being unable to hear.

If “draw” means an “irresistible force,” then all would be saved. Why?

Because later Lord says: “And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto myself” (Jn. 12:32).

“come unto me” (Mt. 11:28),

God is completely transparent on what on what He does... not under some cloak of preferential treatment for some.

God draws people by the Holy Spirit and by means of gospel instruction by which people are taught, hear, and learn.
 
Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Sackcloth-N-Ashes

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EleventhHour said:
New King James Version
So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Romans 10:17


It does not state faith comes by being unable to hear.

If “draw” means an “irresistible force,” then all would be saved. Why?

Because later Lord says: “And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto myself” (Jn. 12:32).

“come unto me” (Mt. 11:28),

God is completely transparent on what on what He does... not under some cloak of preferential treatment for some.

God draws people by the Holy Spirit and by means of gospel instruction by which people are taught, hear, and learn.
Click to expand...
If you study out the Greek word ’helko’, it means to literally drag off, lead, impel, draw by an inward power. If He is drawing all men indiscriminately, then all would be saved. Just like in John 6:44, John 18:10, John 21:11, Acts 16:19, Acts 21:30, and James 2:6. In each verse, those drawn(some versions use dragged) shows ‘helko’ being effective. In other words, those drawn, ppl drawn by God(John 6:44 and John 12:32), Peter’s sword(John 18:10), the net Peter drew to the shore(John 21:11), Paul and Silas dragged to the market place(Acts 16:19, Paul dragged out of the temple(Acts 21:30), rich ppl dragging the oppressed before the court(James 2:6) shows that ‘helko’ is an effectual drawing. That when God draws, they come.
 
Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Sackcloth-N-Ashes

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EleventhHour said:
New King James Version
So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Romans 10:17


It does not state faith comes by being unable to hear.

If “draw” means an “irresistible force,” then all would be saved. Why?

Because later Lord says: “And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto myself” (Jn. 12:32).

“come unto me” (Mt. 11:28),

God is completely transparent on what on what He does... not under some cloak of preferential treatment for some.

God draws people by the Holy Spirit and by means of gospel instruction by which people are taught, hear, and learn.
Click to expand...
And what about those who died never hearing the gospel?
 
Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Sackcloth-N-Ashes

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EleventhHour said:
New King James Version
So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Romans 10:17


It does not state faith comes by being unable to hear.

If “draw” means an “irresistible force,” then all would be saved. Why?

Because later Lord says: “And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto myself” (Jn. 12:32).

“come unto me” (Mt. 11:28),

God is completely transparent on what on what He does... not under some cloak of preferential treatment for some.

God draws people by the Holy Spirit and by means of gospel instruction by which people are taught, hear, and learn.
Click to expand...
I posted this on another thread a year or so ago...

Sackcloth-N-Ashes said:
Wayne Peterson of the ‘Alliance for the Unreached’ told CBN news “Out of the seven billion people on planet Earth, I think it’s 3.2 billion people, which is about 40 percent of the population, have no opportunity to hear the gospel where they live, in their location.” This was as of April 2018.

http://www1.cbn.com/cbnnews/cwn/201...sus-day-to-reach-the-unreached-set-for-may-20
Click to expand...
 
Magenta

Magenta

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Micaiah-imla said:
He came to take sin away, not the consequence of it:

John 1:29
[29] The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Jesus warned us many times of the dangers of returning to sin after being sanctified/justified.
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Taking it away removes the ultimate consequence of it from us, which is death.
 
dcontroversal

dcontroversal

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Judges1318 said:
The Galatians fell.

"2 Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all.
4 You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace." - Galatians 5:2,4


Agreed. No one has the power in and of themselves to save themselves or keep themselves saved.
We can only believe, and keep believing, by God's grace.


I just cited one above.
And, Hebrews 10:14, 26-31 talks about sanctified people who have been made perfect forever by the one time sacrifice of Jesus who will then be subject to the raging fire judgment of God if they purposely trample on that blood that sanctified them.

Matthew 18:6-9, and Luke 9:42-47 talk about little ones who believe in Jesus stumbling so as to go to hell.


See, Jesus' sacrifice being 'forever' doesn't mean you always have the benefit of his sacrifice no matter what. It means it never runs out like the old covenant sacrifices did and had to be made over again.
And eternal life doesn't mean that, while in the body, you have that life for eternity no matter what. It means the life itself that you receive will never run out, like it did under the old covenant.
And because this is true we are exhorted to keep believing in Jesus in order to keep that which our God given faith secures for us apart from the merit of the works of the law.
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You can forget tap dancing around me.....the context is not about losing salvation, it is about false teachers that blend faith plus the works of the law to finish salvation and like the HEBREWS LETTER.....he is clearly i indicating that for one to believe such drivel is in effect to remove themselves from a position of grace and attempt to place themselves UNDER an inferior position.

No offense, but if you think for one micro second that PAUL IS SAYING they fell from Grace and lost salvation, you do not know what you are talking about.

We have had this dance before, you have proven over and over to be contexually incorrect on most of what you hold and say.

Do me a huge favor....DO NOT engage me until you decide to view the scriptures from an honest contextually valid standpoint instead of through the lense of the incessantly false view of a losable, self maintained salvation, which the bible does not support.
 
dcontroversal

dcontroversal

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Magenta said:
I resisted for quite some time, and in light of the final outcome (here I am, Lord!) it is almost impossible to imagine any turning away for all time if and when the Truth has been placed before them. And of course we hear of even hardened atheists attempting to prove Biblical truths wrong, only to come to belief and faith in the process. And we also know the Biblical promise, even set against God knowing none seek Him, for people do still seek truth, and Jesus is the embodiment of all Truth, and those who seek, find. A regenerated heart is necessary, which God makes possible... that I cannot argue :)
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I never disagreed that many do surrender.....but there is only one way anyone is accepted, by grace through faith and the calling of GOD IS IRREVOCABLE.....so....if the bible says....Many are called, but few chosen....I can conclude correctly that the ones not found in the "few" rejected the call and indeed did resist grace!
 
Magenta

Magenta

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dcontroversal said:
I never disagreed that many do surrender.....but there is only one way anyone is accepted, by grace through faith and the calling of GOD IS IRREVOCABLE.....so....if the bible says....Many are called, but few chosen....I can conclude correctly that the ones not found in the "few" rejected the call and indeed did resist grace!
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Amen, we are in agreement (I did know that)... praise the Lord, for He is good, His love endures forever! :)
 
dcontroversal

dcontroversal

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eternally-gratefull said:
I disagree, this is not the way I see it

he worded it as it says

we first receive God, and after doing this, we recieve the power to be born again,

Paul says the same thing in eph 1 : 13-14

13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who[d] is the [e]guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

1. we hear the word (through God’s power)
2. Then we trust God in faith
3. Then we are sealed by the spirit,

new birth and all that goes with it come after faith
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I agree...he is putting the ox before the cart......One must receive 1st a completed action and then because of receiving are born again from above.....it is clear and many other passages of scripture support this order.....
 
dcontroversal

dcontroversal

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Sackcloth-N-Ashes said:
Proginosko means:


  1. to have knowledge before hand
  2. to foreknow
  3. of those whom God elected to salvation
  4. to predestinate

Its found in:

since they have known about me for a long time, if they are willing to testify, that I lived as a Pharisee according to the strictest sect of our religion.[Acts 26:5]

This is Paul speaking to Agrippa about how the Jews previously (beforehand) about him and his life.

For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;[Romans 8:29]

This is talking about election. Those He foreknew, not their actions, but them. He doesn’t foreknow ppl’s actions, but ppl themselves. Whom He foreknew, not what.

God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?[Romans 11:2]

Again, whom(ppl not ppl’s actions) He foreknew. See my Romans 8:29 quote.

For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you.[1 Peter 1:20]

Here we see the Christ being predestined to be the sacrificial Lamb on the cross. He was foreordained to be this Lamb nailed to a cross. It was He, not His actions, that were predestined/foreordained to this work on the cross. God doesn’t foreknow ppl’s actions, but ppl themselves.

You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness,[2 Peter 3:17]

Peter is telling them of the things they knew beforehand and was giving them a reminder.

That’s where you see the range of proginosko is used. It does mean to know beforehand, but that’s used when Paul and Peter are talking to others. It also means to foreordain when used in reference to how God saves the elect.
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You said above that God does not foreknow people's actions......ummmmm I suggest you study a little more!
 
dcontroversal

dcontroversal

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Sackcloth-N-Ashes said:
You said that God elects ppl based upon those He knows would be willing to receive Christ. So, those He knows won’t do this, He doesn’t elect. According to your very own words, God elects those He knows who will be willing. He’s electing them based upon what they will do. That’s merit my friend. No way around it.



The sooner you realize fallen man’s will is not free, the better. The lost are in bondage to sin and Satan. Their wills are not free whatsoever. Matthew 7:24, Romans 6:6 & 6:16ff clearly shows the lost are slaves to sin. Slaves aren’t free

2 Peter 3:9 is directed to believers. How’d I know you’d use that verse? Y’all must think we’ve blotted out John 3:16 and 2 Peter 3:9 from our bibles.

The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.[2 Peter 3:9]

There‘s your context right there. Where else can we find this language?

“What do you think? If any man has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go and search for the one that is straying? If it turns out that he finds it, truly I say to you, he rejoices over it more than over the ninety-nine which have not gone astray. So it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones perish.[Matthew 18:12-14]

Same language is used here. Notice how He said the shepherd would seek for his lost sheep. He doesn’t just call for them, He seeks them out. That’s where the gospel comes in. We are His representatives here on earth, and He seeks His sheep out through us, as we witness to ppl. He doesn’t just call them, He finds them and saves them.
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The sooner you realize that men are born with free will to choose, the sooner you will realize the error....

CHOOSE you this day WHOM you will serve.

Joshua was inspired.....Calvin was not!
 
dcontroversal

dcontroversal

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eternally-gratefull said:
Well we have heard two possibilities from mailman dan and you
how about a third
he created billions and billions of people and puts them all under sin so that the gift of salvation can be offered to all. Knowing billions in the end will be saved and the rest have no one to blame but themselves. Because they had the same opportunity and rejected it
I think the third choice resembles the god who is a god of justice while also a god of love more aptly than the other two
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God would have ALL MEN BE SAVED and come to the knowledge of the truth....and I believe there is a bigger picture missed by many.....EVEN JESUS had to disrobe himself of glory, take flesh, be given milk and honey that he may know to CHOOSE the good over the evil......this whole existence under the sun is about CHOICE....Choose GOD'S kingdom or Satan's kingdom.....!
 
jackrosie

jackrosie

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John 15:16

You did not choose me,but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit- fruit that will last.
Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name.
This is my command;
Love each other.
 
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eternally-gratefull

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preacher4truth said:
Yep. Grace isn't owed or it isn't grace, and isn't merited by any action of man God "foresaw."

People put demands on God that he must meet to be considered fair, by mortal man. Romans 9:19-20 deal with this.
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no on puts any demand on God, god did that himself when he claimed to be a god of love
 
fredoheaven

fredoheaven

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preacher4truth said:
Good passage!

Where does that say fallen man has the ability to believe and come to Christ? You are pitting, not proving. Lost man always rejects the things of the Spirit, they are foolishness to those who are perishing, 1 Corinthians 2:14.
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"Lost man always rejects the things of the Spirit" then why are some saved if lost man always rejects...I consider all men are lost, how is that he can be saved? Thanks
 
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oldethennew

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HEB. 3:12.
Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, 'in departing' from the living God.
14.
For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
4:1.
Let us therefore fear, lest, 'a promise being left us of entering into his rest', any of you should seem to come short of it.
HEW. 10:26.
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of The Truth, there remains no more Sacrifice for sins,
29.
Of how much sorer punishment, suppose you shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot
The Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith He was sanctified, an unholy thing,
and hath done despite unto The Spirit of grace?
31.
It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of The Living God.
COR.9:27.= Paul speaking:
But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others,
(((I myself should be a castaway.)))
ROMANS 11:22.
Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness,
'if you continue in His goodness: (((otherwise you also shalt be cut off))).
 
VCO

VCO

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Magenta said:

I praise the One Who paid my debt and raised this life up from the dead:)
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You BLESSED ME with a CRYING song for the FAITHFULNESS JESUS CHRIST, for the 2nd time today. What a blessing to CRY 2 Twice in one day, Worshiping Jesus Christ. Kim Walker-Smith, you can tell she is BORN AGAIN, and was SINGING TO THE LORD, as she sang.
THANK YOU FOR POSTING IT. I was expecting to go home to the LORD, before that song ended.
 
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