Catholicism vs Protestantism

Perfect understanding of scripture is not the point. However everyone must be born again in order to gain entrance into heaven. Peter's instructions in Acts parallel Jesus stated requirements in John 3:3-5.

As you quoted, The word that I spoke, the same will judge him in the last day. Jesus made many statements that relate to the required spiritual rebirth. (John 3:3-5, Luke 24:47-49, Matt 28:19, Acts 22:10) Jesus also made the following comment concerning the word: John
John 17:17 "Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth."

Concerning Luke 12:47, it pertains to servant's. Born again Christians are considered the lord's servants. And are expected to fulfill the task set before them and remain steadfast until He returns. Their work will be judged not for salvation but reward. (1 Cor 3:12-15)

Paul's statement in Acts 19 refutes this understanding and makes it clear everyone must be water baptized in the name of Jesus. It is not optional.


Notice Peter's response to "what shall we do?" He gives the specific instructions they are required to obey and goes on to say:

"the promise is for you, your children, and those who are afar off even as many as the Lord shall call." This truth is further evidenced in Acts 8:12-17, 10:44-48, 19:2-6, 22:16.
The exact phrase does not occur. However, is evidenced in the actions of those depicted in Acts 8:12-17, 10:44-48, 19:2-6, 22:16 as well.

My point was Jesus' statement lined up with other book content.



Not sure. Maybe my thoughts concerning this scripture are wrong. Had thought maybe one of the four realized they belonged to Christ regardless of who baptized them.

I've provided scripture that clearly shows people received the Holy Spirit before and other times after getting water baptized. I don't claim to understand the specifics behind it. However, at times I have been drawn to the scripture in 1 Thessalonians that would seem to indicate that man's spirit, soul and body must be dwelt with separately. And wondered whether obedience to repentance, water baptism and the infilling of the Holy Ghost caused spiritual realities in connection with the separate parts of man. Any thoughts?:

1 Thess 5:23-24
"And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it."



Acts 4:7 would seem to be clarifying that because Peter was a Spirit filled believer is why he could be used by God is heal people. Not that he had actually been filled by the Spirit at that specific moment.

As to Zacharias and even John the Baptist their being filled was not the norm. Only after Jesus' death, burial and resurrection were people filled with the Holy Spirit as part of the spiritual rebirth experience.
Paul's question indicated that believing and receiving the Holy Ghost took place separately. Period.
His comment had nothing to do with their interaction afterward.

Consider, however, that they believed Paul's message and the need for them to be re-baptized in the name of Jesus Christ and obeyed. After doing so, Paul laid hands on them and they received the Holy Ghost. Receiving the Holy Ghost was indeed a separate experience as depicted.


Aside from who was used, the story conveys that believing and receiving the Holy Ghost take place separately.



I am aware of circumstances where Jesus forgave sins while He was on the earth. But am unaware of any scriptures that contradicts one another. Please share those you have seen.


Yes water baptism is a command as seen in the many scriptures I have shared.

Jesus came to fulfill the OT law. After His death, burial and resurrection the NT mandate was put into place. God has always required man's obedience to his covenant responsibility. In the NT that is repentance and submitting to water baptism after accepting Jesus' death, burial and resurrection. The promise of the gift of the Holy Ghost is a God given provision.

Ok my brother Dan, the Bible say dead is sleep, so if billion people ask them to pray with them, when they sleep.
And you say, god preach to the dead in hades.

That is different story. God not ya. God talk to Lazarus and he wake up, can we?

About not pray with the dead, that is my reason not to. And you never critized catholic pray to, not only pray with.

About celebrate Christmas why not same as pray to thebdeadZ.

I just eat mango and it not in the Bible Jackson prohibit eat mango or Bible give permission for me to eat mango but I ate it

I don't want to pray to the dead, people n the history of the Bible never I read about people pray to the dead, but in my country every day I see people pray to the dead.

And I believe catholic is pagan not Christian, that is why they do like pagan, pray to the dead.

Baptism is like a wedding ring when you get married. The rings symbolise the commitment you have made to each other. As you wear it everyone can see that you are married. If you don't have a wedding ring, you're still married. If you have committed your life to Christ, it is by grace alone you are saved. All the things you do after that, including baptism is our way to return our thanks to God. After all, the criminal on the cross who asked Jesus "remember me" was promised he would be in heaven. He had no time to get baptised or do any good dead. All he had time for is to ask for forgiveness.

Yes. That's what I mean when I wrote"everything in the story points to something true"

I think that is good exegesis. I am thinking that the image of being surrounded by a cloud of people who were with Christ is this
1 Thessalonians 4:17

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Yep, only analogy, something to make us understand what going on

Wedding dress is a figurative analogy of a soul prepared to unite eternally with Jesus.

I believe my post was in response to your question here
I agree that a person must be born again to enter the kingdom of God.

but how or when God decides to "born a person again" is up to him.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old things have passed away. Behold, all things have become new.

The thief was not required to follow the NT mandate. Water baptism became necessary in connection with the spiritual rebirth after Jesus' death, burial and resurrection.

The clouds spoken of in this scripture refer to the actual sky. Take a look at the previous verse. Verse 16 speaks of Jesus' coming down from heaven, a reference to the sky, followed by a shout. His shout will awaken the dead in Christ in their graves and they will rise to meet Him first. Then people who are still alive at His appearing will rise up into the sky along with those who rose first and together they will all meet the Lord in the air.

1 Thess 4:16-17
"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

That's my point. Isn't the imagery the same?

Yes and how to prepare? I believe by having faith in Jesus that follow up by abide in Him, than it will produce fruits

yes, I agree that being born again is required to enter the kingdom of God.

46And he said, “Yes, it was written long ago that the Messiah would suffer and die and rise from the dead on the third day. 47It was also written that this message would be proclaimed in the authority of his name to all the nations,f beginning in Jerusalem: ‘There is forgiveness of sins for all who repent.’ 48You are witnesses of all these things.

49“And now I will send the Holy Spirit, just as my Father promised. But stay here in the city until the Holy Spirit comes and fills you with power from heaven.”
https://biblehub.com/nlt/luke/24.htm

as I read this, it doesn't talk directly about being born again.
I agree that it relates to being born again in the sense that this passage speaks about forgiveness of sins and the coming of the holy Spirit, which both relate to being born again.

I think there is a similar situation at the end of Matthew 28.
yes, it talks about baptism, which relates to being born again in the sense that all aspects of the Christian Life are related.
do you believe that all references to baptisms are references to being born again?

Acts 22:10 I said, 'What shall I do, Lord?' The Lord said to me, 'Arise, and go into Damascus. There you will be told about all things which are appointed for you to do.'

does the book of Acts say that Paul is instructed to be baptized?
or just that he is baptized?
since there are several accounts of Paul's conversion, I'm not sure.

to me, the situation is similar to that of the Philippian jailer
Acts 16:24 who, having received such a command, threw them into the inner prison, and secured their feet in the stocks. 25 But about midnight Paul and Silas were praying and singing hymns to God, and the prisoners were listening to them. 26 Suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken; and immediately all the doors were opened, and everyone's bonds were loosened. 27 The jailer, being roused out of sleep and seeing the prison doors open, drew his sword and was about to kill himself, supposing that the prisoners had escaped. 28 But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying, "Don't harm yourself, for we are all here!" 29 He called for lights and sprang in, and, fell down trembling before Paul and Silas, 30 and brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"

very interesting situation here, imo.
the question is almost identical to what Peter is asked at Pentecost,
but Paul responds with a somewhat different answer
Acts 16:31 They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household." 32 They spoke the word of the Lord to him, and to all who were in his house. 33 He took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes, and was immediately baptized, he and all his household.
34 He brought them up into his house, and set food before them, and rejoiced greatly, with all his household, having believed in God.

we may wish to compare this with the passage above
"They spoke the word of the Lord to him, and to all who were in his house."

Paul and Silas spoke the entire Bible to them?

I agree that the parable describes servants.

do you perceive that God beats you and whips you?

regarding salvation,
do you believe God uses the same absolute standard for everyone,
including those who do not have a Bible in their language?

I disagree.
can you think of ways in which the situation is different for the disciples in Ephesus in Acts 19 compared to the apostles in the upper room?

of course, Paul gives somewhat different instructions to the Philippian jailer.

if you believe there is a specific algorithm that must be followed for salvation, doesn't it seem strange that the Bible describes salvation in so many different ways?

1 Timothy 2:14 Adam wasn't deceived, but the woman, being deceived, has fallen into disobedience; 15 but she will be saved through her childbearing, if they continue in faith, love, and sanctification with sobriety.

is it a promise, or a commandment?

do those passages state that the people involved were baptized in order to obtain salvation?

that's correct.

and I mean this next part very gently:
without the longer ending of Mark, you lack the "slam dunk" that you would really like the Bible to have.

that is true, if one strongly desires to see it there.

as I talked about earlier, wherever the location of a baptism is known, it is outdoors.

using the same approach, then, baptisms must be done outdoors.

well, in the longer ending of Mark Jesus talks about speaking with "new tongues".
I'm not sure, but I think in all the other Scriptures it says "other tongues".

that the holy Spirit can be received separately from water baptism indicates to me that forgiveness of sins is sometimes accomplished with water baptism, and sometimes water baptism is done as a sign of the forgiveness of sins.

thanks for asking!

I think Paul is simply giving a blessing, and in most languages it sounds nice if you use the
"rule of three".

like this
1 Timothy 1:17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.

three phrases,
the first one has a string of three adjectives...
maybe the three adjectives refer to the three persons of the Godhead,
or maybe it just gives it a musical sound.

I think this brings up an important idea about Bible understanding.

the Bible is a really big book.
it says a lot of things about a lot of different things,
sometimes in the same way, sometimes in different ways.

suppose we use the analogy of a giant jigsaw puzzle.
a person says, "these two pieces fit together, and then that allows this third piece to fit, and pretty soon you've got most of the pieces fitting together.
then just take the remaining pieces and apply some extra pressure, and they fit too."

then someone else says, "if you change around some of the earlier pieces, then you don't have to apply that pressure to those other remaining pieces."

of course, the second person also has pieces left over...

again, the passage in Acts doesn't say what they believed.
different believers sometimes believe different things
Acts 15:5 But some of the sect of the Pharisees who believed rose up, saying, "It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses."

about receiving the holy Spirit, John has this to say
John 20:22 When he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit! 23 Whoever's sins you forgive, they are forgiven them. Whoever's sins you retain, they have been retained."
(Thomas wasn't with them, does he not receive the holy Spirit?)

I think it is interesting that Paul is confident that everyone that 1 Corinthians is addressed to is baptized with the spirit
1 Corinthians 12:13 For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether bond or free; and were all given to drink into one Spirit.

contradictions, no.
but some pretty good paradoxes, imo
James 5:14 Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the assembly, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord, 15 and the prayer of faith will save him who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up. If he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.

if you believe that Jesus came to replace the rituals and ordinances of the old covenant
with a different ritual done in a specific method with a specific phrase said at the same time,
then I think you aren't grasping the New covenant.

focusing on letters brings death
it's the spirit that gives life.

(and of course, I say all of the above in a gentle, friendly tone.)

The scripture you quote is from the NLT bible. The NLT is a paraphrase not a literal translation such was the KJV. Therefore, the verses meaning is distorted.

Notice what the actual scripture states and how it differs from the paraphrase in the NLT:
"And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem." Luke 24:47

After a thorough study of all scriptures relating to water baptism, it's connection to repentance and remission of sins is clearly seen. However, only after Jesus' death, burial and resurrection was anyone instructed to be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Jesus' statement above is evidence of this truth.

well, my wonderful brother Jackson, it's hard for me to make sense out of many of your sentences there,
so it's hard for me to follow your logic.

big picture,
there is no passage in the scriptures that say it is wrong to ask Christians in heaven to pray with you, imo.