Not By Works

If you think I'm saying works save you totally misunderstand my point. Let's look at the example of Abraham's sacrifice of Isaac that James' speaks of, as I think it highlights that James wasn't addressing the merit of works at all. In fact, no such sacrifice ever happened. God intervened and prevented Abraham from carrying it out. So it's not the value of the performance, but Abraham's willingness that is in fact demonstration of his faith and thus justifies him. In the same way, if our "faith" is such that we are unwilling to do what God asks of us then we cannot actually say to have faith. Abraham wasn't justified by the deed but by the fact that his deeds were complete, they were in line with his faith.

The ongoing tireless emphasis of 'confirmation" comes from Calvinism.. Lordship Salvation.... that is all I am going to say..

I think there is a place for it but some belabor ad nauseam.

He was already justified by faith.

Why does God need a "deed" when God is the one who had already justified Abraham by faith?

What is "faith" without commensurate action?

I was never big on theology, so it doesn't surprise me I didn't catch that. I don't like how when forming denominations people just mega-emphasize one thing and everything else in the Bible seems to fade into the background and one idea becomes central for salvation (and not Jesus). Thanks for the pointer.

Very good point. Thank you. Reading James now

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Hebrews 11:1

And that is a certain hope not a wishful thinking hope.

...and then Hebrews 11 goes on to list all of the things that faith drove people to do. So again, what is faith if it's not inspiring action? If it doesn't cause works?

Faith is what God rewards. Faith is how Abraham became the father to all nations. Faith is how Isaac was spared from death. Faith is what God seeks. Works is what mankind does, with or without faith. There are all kinds of "works." Good, bad, ugly. The Works of Man are simply as filthy rags when compared to the faith God desires from His people

That's all well and good, but it robs the word "faith" of any meaning. As for your semi-quote of Isaiah 64:6, that statement wasn't an anthropologic fact but directed at the nation of Israel because their works were stained with their sin of idolatry. Isaiah including himself is a matter of his corporate membership not personal guilt. It would be like if I said "we've lost our way" when speaking of the American church I wouldn't mean to imply that I have lost my way but am saying it as a member of the body mentioned.

How about you define faith?

Compelling trust.

When I returned Nebraska after my Wife passed away, I came back to the CHURCH I knew the Church still SAME Pastor that it had when we left for California, because the LORD called me. I was the only place that seemed like HOME. One of his sermons from 1988 that stuck in my mind, focused on ABRAHAM.

He said "IF you can find one individual that GOD clearly and decisively SAVED AND JUSTIFIED, then we can all know how GOD SAVES AND JUSTIFIES EVERY INDIVIDUAL, because of this following VERSE:

Malachi 3:6 (NJB)
6 ‘No; I, Yahweh, do not change;
and you have not ceased to be children of Jacob!

Here is the Scriptures that Clearly and Decisively How HE SAVED and JUSTIFIED one individual:

Romans 4:3-5 (HCSB)
3 For what does the Scripture say? Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him for righteousness.
4 Now to the one who works, pay is not considered as a gift, but as something owed.
5 But to the one who does not work, but believes on Him who declares the ungodly to be righteous,
his faith is credited for righteousness."


So you need another Verse that says the same thing, good for you:

Galatians 2:16 (HCSB)
16 know that no one is justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ. And we have believed in Christ Jesus so that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no human being will be justified.


Of course the Version that Pastor taught from was the orignal 1977 NASB. So I updated it, therefore, if you wanted an accurate quote, you would have to convert it to the (NASB77) such as this.

Malachi 3:6 (NASB77)
6 "For I, the LORD, do not change;
therefore you, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed.

Yes, all BEFORE understanding the resurrection and being truly saved.

Having the power to heal and cast out devils is not a sign that one is saved (see Matthew 7:21-23).

Jesus did not say what you said.

Kindly show the scripture.

Where did Jesus say this?

Whenever John talks about works, he was generally referring to signs and wonders (John 14:11)

That is what his gospel was about (John 20:30-31)

I agree with you. Its only after Christ that Romans 3:21 came about

But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

In time past, before the grace dispensation came, Jews had to obey the Law, do works in order for God to declare them righteous.

It was not works that saved them, it was faith. But the only way to show faith in God was to obey what he commanded. If God commanded Israel to follow the Law, a Jew cannot quote Romans 4:5 in response.

But we don't because we are living in the "but now" time period. We can now use Romans 4:5

Actually, it's a late-developed interpretation of Romans 4:5 you're citing as authoritative that comes from reading it as a theological treatise rather than the occasional letter that it is. And that through treating the points Paul makes as disjointed points rather than a cohesive argument. Instead of cutting up the Bible and looking at the whole thing through the lens of a particular reading of Paul I believe you'd do well to first try to understand the Old Testament in it's own context and once you're bathed in that then go on to see Paul's rhetorical fluorishes for what they are.

Isn't Romans 3:21 clear if you read it literally? The bible can be easy to understand if you do that.

"But now" means what to you? That is one of Paul's favorite phrases in his letters to the Body of Christ.

Not in isolation, no. It's quite easy to build a false doctrine on taking verses out of context, especially when building a universal doctrine off of something that was used as part of a limited argument. The whole of Romans is written with the intent of bringing unity to the Jewish and Gentile believers in the Roman church, with the central point being that Abraham's descendents are by faith and not physical descent.