THIRD TEMPLE NEWS

looking at this "literal" and not symbolic, https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/13-15.htm if,the one's who do not worship are killed are they killed spiritually or literally by the two horned beast? Now if they were deceived and worship the image then they are spiritually dead(killed), but if they do not worship the image(like Scripture says),then they are not spiritually dead(not deceived/don't worship the image) so they are killed literally by the two horned beast?

Our Church Members, KEEP WATCH all the time, and we are READY to be called out to go to the Wedding of the LAMB at any time. All of the Churches I have been involved with since I was Born Again, have been Pre-Tribulation Churches, so we always believe in KEEPing READY.

Here's the whole chapter https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+24&version=KJV your only saying your watching for verse 42 and not the things prior to it the Lord mentions.

NO, that is LITERAL. The Antichrist will become the MOST BLOOD THIRSTY DICTATOR THAT EVER LIVED. Anyone who refuses that mark that is total allegiance to the Antichrist himself, he will cut off their heads. EVERYONE who refuses to bow to the Antichrist will met the same fate.

Revelation 20:4-5 (HCSB)
4 Then I saw thrones, and people seated on them who were given authority to judge. ⌊I⌋ also ⌊saw⌋ the people who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of God’s word, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and who had not accepted the mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with the Messiah for 1,000 years.
5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1,000 years were completed. This is the first resurrection.


I still think the Mark of the Beast will be an RFID CHIP planted in your hand or forehead. I did a study on that back in January 1019. Here is the link: https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/are-we-there-yet-666.182554/

IN FACT you were one that DEBATED me back then.

Exactly it is "literal", look at the verse I gave in post #1821 and reason it though as to why it is literal and not metaphorical/spiritual. That is why I mentioned this and if you reason through Revelation 13:15 then you will be able to prove it is "literally" and not metaphorically fulfilled.

Thanks for your reply. You stated, "even though you cannot explain them in their fulfillment." What in particular are you talking about here? There might be 1 or 2 little things out of a hundred which we don't have perfect answers. That is far less than the futurists who must twist, contort, add massive gaps where none are found, re institute the Law and sacrifices, deny Christ's timing of that generation, make exceptions to Heb 9:27, etc, etc.

As for Rev 20, this is the passage where I cannot find historical fulfillment. Many preterists believe it happened during the Crusades, but I remain unconvinced.

7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.

I don't look for this event because it doesn't trouble me. If this is literal, then Christians have nothing to fear. We all get beach houses for free.

Then perhaps the mark is symbolic also, no? We know John loved to use OT symbols. Could the mark be that of Ezekiel 9? Here the mark was placed on the foreheads of those to be spared death just as they were in Rev until the Lord returned.

Doesn't Christ define who killed the prophets and saints in Mat 23:

29 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, 30 and say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.’

31 “Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers’ guilt. 33 Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell? 34 Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, 35 that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

Why are we unsure about this? Christ makes clear He is holding the Scribes and Pharisees accountable for the blood of the prophets just as their fathers were. Then we see this in Rev 18:

21 Then a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone and threw it into the sea, saying, “Thus with violence the great city Babylon shall be thrown down, and shall not be found anymore. 24 And in her was found the blood of prophets and saints, and of all who were slain on the earth.”

The Blood of all the prophets and saints that were slain were found in Babylon. This was true in the OT and we know it was true in the NT also. These Jews were going after the disciples and their followers throughout the Roman Empire. Therefore:

BABYLON = JERUSALEM

It would be one thing if some of these scribes and pharisees survived 70 AD but all left were killed as Josephus records:

On the fifth day afterward, the priests that were pined with the famine came down, and when they were brought to Titus by the guards, they begged for their lives; but he replied, that the time of pardon was over as to them, and that this very holy house, on whose account only they could justly hope to be preserved, was destroyed; and that it was agreeable to their office that priests should perish with the house itself to which they belonged. So he ordered them to be put to death.

Here is a classic example of a futurist adding gaps not found in an attempt to make his deal work.

Notice this:

“And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;

Seems to me the 62nd week is over, then Messiah is cut off so He had to have been cut off into the 70th week. Keep in mind, Daniel is in Babylon, Jerusalem has been utterly destroyed and does not exist. Daniel is being told it will be rebuilt. Next sentence:

And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

Here Daniel is being told about it's destruction after it was rebuilt. Jerusalem is to be destroyed by a Prince. Titus was a Prince. It is to be destroyed in a War. The Jews had a war with Rome. The end shall be with a flood. "Flood" is often used to portray an invading foreign army. Rome swept over Jerusalem like a flood. Jerusalem was to be left desolate. Jerusalem was desolated in 70 AD. Desolation means depopulation. Everything fits.

Questions for VCO:

1. If this destruction of Jerusalem is future to us, where is Daniel told about the one to come to the city which was to be rebuilt during the first 7 weeks?
2. The theme of the whole chapter is "WHEN DO WE GET TO GO HOME AND REBUILD OUR CITY." So, why is the demise of that city not mentioned?
3. Why is construction of the Jerusalem today not mentioned but its destruction is?

You see VCO, your view means the 70 AD destruction is not told by Daniel. The 1948 and 1967 return to Jerusalem is also not mentioned but the future (to us) destruction of today's Jerusalem is told to Daniel. Does this make sense to any objective person?

What the heck is this? "Great words of peace?" "Fatal head wounds?" "Resurrection after 3 days." "Declaring himself to be God." None of these things are told to us.

Let's deal with the fatal head wound first from Rev 13:

Revelation 13 paints a picture of first century Rome, the Beast of the Sea and later, the Earth.

The beast with the 7 heads rising up out of the sea was the Roman Empire. "The SEA" often represents a Gentile Nation while the "Earth" represents a specific Land, usually Israel. The 7 heads were the 7 leaders of Rome up to this time:

1. Julius Caesar
2. Caesar Augustus
3. Tiberius
4. Caligula
5. Claudius
6. Nero
7. Vespasian

The sixth head was the beast with the mortal wound, Nero, who committed suicide by stabbing himself in the neck. Thus, the first 6 Caesars made up the family line of Julio-Claudian Dynasty which ended with Nero. Following the death of Nero, when the kingdom went dark at the height of its strength, many believed it had died. Nero did not name a successor. Because of this Rome entered a brutal and bloody civil war during the year of the 4 emperors. Galba, Otho and Vitellius were not of the Julio-Claudian Dynasty, they were never able to consolidate power to control the whole empire, nor were they recognized by the Senate. Thus, they were not heads. During their reigns, the offensive against Israel ordered by Nero, was suspended.

The Flavian Dynasty marked Rome's rebirth or resurrection. It wasn't until Vespasian that the mortal wound was healed and the Roman Civil War ended and the satanic Beast kingdom was restored. When Vespasian was declared Caesar, his two sons Titus and Domitian were also declared Caesar so that a clear line of succession would be in place. This was an unholy trinity. The Beast of the Earth was Vespasian who I have no problems using the term "AntiChrist" although that Biblical term applied only to the spirit of heresy and is only found in 1 and 2 John. As a type of opposite to God and Son Vespasian who was worshiped as God and His Son, Titus took the same name, Titus Flavius Vespasianus. Thus they were an opposite to God, Father and HS.

Thus Vespasian was the seven head that "grew out" of the sixth severed head along with his son, Titus. Titus was then the 8th head but part of the 7 as stated in Rev 17. The Roman Empire was restored under a new dynasty, the Flavian Dynasty. I believe this historical peculiarity subtly points to these two heads of the beast growing up out of the same severed neck. (Interestingly just as Nero Caesar transliterated into Hebrew characters adds up to 666 so does Titus Flavius Vespasianus by the same transliteration. The fact that two heads grew up in the place of the old severed head is also implied in Revelation 17:11. According to Revelation 17:11 the beast who once had seven heads eventually ends up with eight. This eighth head was the previous seventh head since two heads grew up from the stump of the previous sixth head representing Nero.

The Satanic nature of Rome as the beast started with the birth of Augustus. As a direct opposite to the virgin birth of Christ, Augustus was said to have been born of a serpent.

Concerning the story of the divine birth of Augustus found in the Theologumena, Suetonius writes:


Vespasian came from the Earth (Israel) before he returned to Rome as its emperor as he came out of Israel where Nero sent him to put down the Jewish rebellion. In fact many Jews who were against the war viewed Vespasian as their Messiah sent to save them from the zealots.

Interestingly there is another way in which the Roman army was explicitly symbolized by fire from heaven. Josephus says the following in Wars of the Jews: “But when Titus perceived that his endeavors to spare a foreign temple turned to the damage of his soldiers and made them be killed, he gave orders to set the gates [of the Temple] on fire.” With the aid of the twelfth legion, Legio XII Fulminata, the Romans set the Temple ablaze. With the Temple on fire, the Romans were soon able to secure the Temple after having exterminated the Jewish resistance seeking refuge within its walls. Though first century Rome itself is symbolized by the main ensign called the Aquila mentioned above, each Roman legion also had an emblem or mascot with which they were represented. It is interesting to note that the emblem of the twelfth legion was a lightning bolt—fire from heaven. Here one can see how “fire from heaven,” representing the twelfth legion, was responsible for the burning of the Jewish temple.

The lightning or fire from heaven mentioned in v. 13 is also a symbol of Rome itself. The symbol of imperial Rome was the Aquila in the same way that the bald eagle represents the United States. In Greek and Roman mythology Aquila was the eagle messenger of Zeus that carried Zeus’ lightning bolt from heaven to earth. During the war between the gods and the Titans, Aquila carried Zeus’ lightning bolts down to the enemy of the gods, the Titans.

The main ensign that the Roman army carried wherever they went was a metallic image or idol of this messenger of Zeus and symbol of Rome. Not surprisingly, this ensign was called the Aquila. Thus the fire from heaven mentioned in v. 13 was also depicted in the Aquila, the chief ensign that the Roman legions brought inside the Temple in A.D. 70. This metal idol of Rome was generally crafted holding Zeus’ lightning bolt—fire from heaven–in its claws. Therefore the presence of the Aquila erected on the floor of the burning Temple with Zeus’ lightning bolt in its claws is also a symbol of fire having come down “from heaven to earth in full view of men.” Given the fact that the symbol of the Roman Empire was the Aquila, the mythological being that carried Zeus’ lightning bolt down to the earth, this fire from heaven appears to also be a symbol of Rome itself. In other words, the presence of the Roman army in Israel and its Temple was also the fire from heaven mentioned in v. 13. This miraculous victory inspired in the Roman army such a reverence for Titus, their leader, that while the holy Temple burned, the Roman army offered sacrifices to the ensigns on the eastern gate of the temple “and there did they make Titus imperator.”

I have always seen it as literal.
The mystery part is everything said about it.

The third temple will be the beginning of the end of life as we know it according to scripture and research. I am looking forward to Christs return. It will be interesting to see what the temple actually will look like when it is built.

Yes literal. Here's is the passage and what it means:

5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months. 6 Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. 7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation. 8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

9 If anyone has an ear, let him hear. 10 He who leads into captivity shall go into captivity; he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

Compare to Luke 21:

20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Those who held the Jews captive inside Jerusalem and killed them with the sword were the zealots of 67-70 AD. Josephus calls them tyrants and robbers. When Rome broke through, these tyrants were the ones being killed by sword and taken captive. As for the 42 months, that was the time of Nero's persecution of Christians. He made war with the saints and overcame them. He spoke blasphemy against God, His name Israel, and His temple. Nero had authority over all nations. He was worshiped as a god. Jerusalem was trampled by Roman solders until it was destroyed. Then they left.

I wouldn't be selling all your possessions and heading up into the hills to wait for that if I were you..

Well, I don't really care who they are, but anyone who is setting dates is not in my camp at all. That is just clearly unbiblical and ignorant.

And I am glad for your clear explanation of your switch from what you were promoting in 2015. That is honesty, rather than excuses.

Now if you would just read the Bible and take it for what it says instead of listening to what people tell you: Don't take it from me: Read the Word!

Oh, I have. Plain Word is my name. Are you reading the Word or are you following the traditions of men like Chuck Smith, et al?

Yes, I used to be in the futurist's camp as late as 2015 apparently, 50 + years. This was because I was raised with the futurists teachings so I blindly accepted them as coming from men smarter than me in the Word. But as I re-read and studied more and more, I came to see that there were far too many inconsistencies in the futurist position and too much bending and twisting of the Word. This caused me to re-read the NT with the preterist viewpoint in mind. When I was done, I read Josephus and it was like having Revelation explained to me. The preterist position aligns perfectly with the Word without mental gymnastics. It makes Christ prediction of His return to that generation true so that some of those standing there would witness His return.

For the Preterist Quick = Quick
For the Futurists Quick = 2,000 years and counting.

I am a futurist because that is what the Bible clearly says, LOL! but you may have you position and I don't have the time to try to argue you out of your position.

I don't even know who this Chuck Smith is! LOL! I am not reading all these guys . . .

I never read much of Josephus at all -- but I wouldn't trust him to interpret the Word!

Actually the Bible says it was future to the time it was written by Paul and the disciples. 70 AD would have been future to them.

Chuck Smith is the founder of all the Calvary Chapels. Great man of God, just wrong about the future as all futurists are.

Josephus is NOT an interpreter of the Word. He merely recorded history and in particular, the events of the Jewish War with Rome. Reading that history is like watching Revelation unfold before your eyes. I find most, if not all, futurists are ignorant about a lot of first century Jewish and Roman history. It is a common thread you all have. If you realized all the prophesies in the NT were recorded in history, maybe you would come around, but I doubt it. Old habits are hard to shake, trust me, took me 50 years.

Good idea not trying to change my mind. Again, I was like you, a futurist with little understanding of history from that era. Since I was a futurist for so long I am well versed in the futurist mindset. I know all the shortcomings of the futurist's prophetic model. It fails on so many levels. I give no quarter to the hermeneutical gymnastics employed to defend the existing futurist system. Preterism expounds a paradigm for interpreting last days prophecy that is faithful to scripture, intellectually satisfying, and provides an inspiring and practical vision of the kingdom of God for Christians today.

Each to his own ideas - but I will stick with the Word . . . !!