By Works

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Chester

Chester

Senior Member
#341
May 23, 2016
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#341
mailmandan said:
So where do you draw the line in the sand and say that you walked worthy "enough" of Christ? How many works does that take? Where is the dividing line between cut off and not cut off?
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There is no line of enough or not enough works. From the parables it is clear that there are different levels of fruitbearing.

The issue is that a faith without any works is a dead faith. Works are a blessing and a privilege, and not a burden or a requirement. They are not a separate package from faith and salvation, but are a key part of the whole process of being made free from a miserable life controlled by sin and the devil.
 
J

Jackson123

Senior Member
#342
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
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#342
mailmandan said:
Increase more and more in works could include any number of good works, which still begs the question.

In John 15, Jesus mentions branches that bear no fruit and branches that bear fruit (vs. 2) but Jesus says nothing about branches that initially bear fruit, but later stop bearing fruit.

Greek scholar AT Robertson points out in his commentary on John 15 that there are two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit, the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). The fruitless (not bearing fruit, mh peron karpon) the vine-dresser "takes away" (airei) or prunes away. Probably (Bernard) Jesus here refers to Judas.

https://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/robertsons-word-pictures/john/john-15.html
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Is that posible for a person abide in Him and no bear fruit?
John 15
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Seem to me jesus promise for a person that abide in Him bear fruit.
It doesn't say bear fruit for awhile than stop.
 
G

Guojing

Banned
#343
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
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#343
Chester said:
You are really good at working hard to try to corner people into either a salvation or sanctification by works. Why don't you just right out ask them: "Do you believe a person is saved by works?" (and then take them at their own words for what they believe)
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I am not trying to corner anyone here. I am just curious how other people understand scripture as it is written.
 
G

Guojing

Banned
#344
Jan 12, 2019
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#344
Micaiah-imla said:
You’re not paying attention.

I quoted two letters where Paul stated that a believer is secure as long as he continues in the faith.

This “to the Jews” narrative is annoying.

God’s word is written to all mankind to be instructed in holiness and wisdom in salvation (2 Timothy 3:15).
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To Paul, our justification is based on what Jesus has done on the cross, and not any works of our kind (Romans 3:21, 1 Cor 15:1-4)

So he is not saying we have a role to play in securing our justication, after we receive that gift. Those verses you quoted from him are not about us keeping out justification.
 
P

Poinsetta

Well-known member
#345
Nov 24, 2018
10,648
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#345
writing letters to my fellow audiences while in jail and sending them greetings.
 
F

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
#346
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
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#346
Jackson123 said:
What do you mean by regenerate believer
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Regenerated means to be re-formed, to come into existence. The word is not in the scriptures, but it means to be reborn, as in the new birth. Regenerate means a born again believer, which is the only way that a person can believe in the things of the Spirit, according to 1 Cor 2:14.
 
F

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
#347
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
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#347
Magenta said:
Another word for regeneration is rebirth, related to the biblical phrase “born again.” The new birth is a spiritual, holy, and heavenly birth that results in our being made alive spiritually. Man in his natural state is “dead in trespasses and sins” until he is “made alive” (regenerated) by Christ. This happens when he places his faith in Christ (Ephesians 2:1). See more here:)
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I believe that you may have mistakenly misquoted Eph 2:1, unless you are using a different version of the bible than I use. I see no mention of the spiritually dead placing his faith in Christ.
 
J

Jackson123

Senior Member
#348
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
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#348
ForestGreenCook said:
Regenerated means to be re-formed, to come into existence. The word is not in the scriptures, but it means to be reborn, as in the new birth. Regenerate means a born again believer, which is the only way that a person can believe in the things of the Spirit, according to 1 Cor 2:14.
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Roman 10
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

But faith come from hearing the Word of God
So hearing first than faith come

In other word, natural man able to hear the word of God and if he decide to believe, he will born again
 
F

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
#349
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
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#349
Jackson123 said:
Roman 10
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

But faith come from hearing the Word of God
So hearing first than faith come

In other word, natural man able to hear the word of God and if he decide to believe, he will born again
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Sorry, but that is not what 1 Cor 2:14 teaches. Did you read 1 Cor 2:14? Spiritual faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit that a person receives when he is born again. Spiritual faith comes by hearing the gospel. John 10:26, But ye believe not because ye are not of my sheep. In verse 27 it says God's sheep (born again children) hear his voice. The natural man, as described in 1 Cor 2:14, is not one of God's sheep, until he has been born again.
 
J

Jackson123

Senior Member
#350
Feb 6, 2014
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#350
ForestGreenCook said:
Sorry, but that is not what 1 Cor 2:14 teaches. Did you read 1 Cor 2:14? Spiritual faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit that a person receives when he is born again. Spiritual faith comes by hearing the gospel. John 10:26, But ye believe not because ye are not of my sheep. In verse 27 it says God's sheep (born again children) hear his voice. The natural man, as described in 1 Cor 2:14, is not one of God's sheep, until he has been born again.
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So do you believe non born again person able to hear the Word and decide to have faith and believe in Jesus?
 
mailmandan

mailmandan

Senior Member
#351
Apr 7, 2014
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#351
Jackson123 said:
Is that posible for a person abide in Him and no bear fruit?
John 15
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Seem to me jesus promise for a person that abide in Him bear fruit.
It doesn't say bear fruit for awhile than stop.
Click to expand...
It would be impossible to abide in Christ and never bear any fruit at all. All genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful.

The Greek word for “abide” is "meno" which means to remain, tarry, not to depart, continue to be present. This is not something that only super saints do.

1 John 4:13 - By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit... 15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#352
Jul 31, 2013
37,844
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#352
i think we'd better watch it with our works


Take heed that you do not do your charitable deeds before men, to be seen by them.
Otherwise you have no reward from your Father in heaven.
(Matthew 6:1) ​
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#353
Jul 3, 2015
60,274
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#353
ForestGreenCook said:
I believe that you may have mistakenly misquoted Eph 2:1, unless you are using a different version of the bible than I use. I see no mention of the spiritually dead placing his faith in Christ.
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Eph 2:1~ As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, refers back to: Man in his natural state is “dead in trespasses and sins” until he is “made alive” (regenerated)... which was the whole point of the post in explaining what regeneration is.
 
J

Jackson123

Senior Member
#354
Feb 6, 2014
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#354
mailmandan said:
It would be impossible to abide in Christ and never bear any fruit at all. All genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful.

The Greek word for “abide” is "meno" which means to remain, tarry, not to depart, continue to be present. This is not something that only super saints do.

1 John 4:13 - By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit... 15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.
Click to expand...
It may not every body equal, I myself not bear abundantly fruit, but we have to remember the fruit of the Holy Spirit is love, one may not able to feed the hungry because no money but as long as he love and try the best to help he bear the fruit

In other side one may feed the hungry not because love, it may happen during political campaigns, that is not the fruit of the Holy spirit
 
M

Micaiah-imla

Banned
#355
Feb 29, 2020
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#355
Guojing said:
To Paul, our justification is based on what Jesus has done on the cross, and not any works of our kind (Romans 3:21, 1 Cor 15:1-4)

So he is not saying we have a role to play in securing our justication
Click to expand...
Colossians 1:21-23 KJV
[21] And you, that were once alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled [22] In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: [23] If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away...

We must continue in the faith.

We do have a role.

The Bible tells me so.
 
M

Micaiah-imla

Banned
#356
Feb 29, 2020
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571
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#356
mailmandan said:
In John 15, Jesus mentions branches that bear no fruit and branches that bear fruit (vs. 2) but Jesus says nothing about branches that initially bear fruit, but later stop bearing fruit.
Click to expand...
If he takes away the branches that do not bear fruit, the branches that initially bear fruit and stop bearing fruit will meet the same fate of being cut off.

A child can understand this logic.
 
G

Guojing

Banned
#357
Jan 12, 2019
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#357
Micaiah-imla said:
Colossians 1:21-23 KJV
[21] And you, that were once alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled [22] In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: [23] If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away...

We must continue in the faith.

We do have a role.

The Bible tells me so.
Click to expand...
I suppose you will say we need to do works in order to "continue in the faith"?
 
mailmandan

mailmandan

Senior Member
#358
Apr 7, 2014
25,477
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#358
Micaiah-imla said:
If he takes away the branches that do not bear fruit, the branches that initially bear fruit and stop bearing fruit will meet the same fate of being cut off.

A child can understand this logic.
Click to expand...
I'm more concerned with what Jesus actually said and not speculations or faulty human logic.
 
mailmandan

mailmandan

Senior Member
#359
Apr 7, 2014
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#359
Jackson123 said:
It may not every body equal, I myself not bear abundantly fruit, but we have to remember the fruit of the Holy Spirit is love, one may not able to feed the hungry because no money but as long as he love and try the best to help he bear the fruit.

In other side one may feed the hungry not because love, it may happen during political campaigns, that is not the fruit of the Holy spirit
Click to expand...
Good point about the fruit of the Holy Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23) and love should always be our motivating factor (and not political agenda) when it comes to feeding the hungry.
 
Blue_Of_Lake

Blue_Of_Lake

Active member
#360
Jun 12, 2020
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#360
Guojing said:
I suppose you will say we need to do works in order to "continue in the faith"?
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John 9:4
4While it is daytime, we must do the works of Him who sent Me. Night is coming, when no one can work.

we must work in the Day Time where the Light (Jesus) is.

we can't Work in the Night -- where Jesus isn't, we must work in the Day Light.


John 9:5
5While I am in the world, I am the light of the world.”…

we must stay In the Light to do the Works of Jesus, just as He did the Work/Works of His Father. we must Work too.


Where there is no Light -- there are no Works. the Less Light there is -- the Less Works.
 
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